Where did this steel come from?

[imajpm]

I've got two broken chocolate Satins, which I bred together. The doe produced only two kits, both gold tipped steel. The buck was bred to a blue doe and produced, rew, chocolate, black, and brokens of both colors but no steel, no agouti. Buck bred to REW doe, produced rew, chinchilla, and a silver tipped steel. Not sure where the chinchilla came from but the breeder of my buck said it was in the lines somewhere. It's also possible that the doe is agouti under the rew. This was the first time I used a colored rabbit with her.

I've read that super steel can hide, self steel supposedly does not have much if any ticking, however the blue doe produced no steel at all so none of it really makes sense to me. Can agouti be hiding in the parents? I keep reading that agouti is necessary for steel to be visible but the parents do not look agouti, nor have they ever had any agouti kits. This buck is driving me nuts! Lucky for him, he is one of my favorites

Pics of both parents plus the solid steel buck from the first litter. Doe kit is broken but her dark areas are the same as this buck. I'm pretty much at a loss as to where this came from. Sorry the buck pic is a bit blurry. He is the same color as the doe in the second picture. If anyone can shed some light I'd be grateful.. Thanks.

 

[Zass]

Self totally hides steel, but agouti steel can pretend to be self too.
Not just light ticking. None. A genetic agouti that is indistinguishable from a self.
It's not just super steels that do it either. Any combination of steel seems to be able to pull of the trick.
That is why it's really bad when people breed steel into self lines. :soap:

 

[imajpm]

So the litter from the blue doe may have had steel? But all hidden? That was a litter of 13 and not a sign of it.

The broken chocolate doe's second litter was from a different buck. No steels in that litter. I'm thinking the buck is the culprit but both of them are super dark chocolate. What would be best to use to test for steel? These Satins came from a line where someone was trying to produce tri-colors. I don't mind steel but I do need to know where it is so it doesn't get all over the place.

Thanks

 

[Dood]

A different buck fathered the litter.

Two chocolates can only produce chocolate (or lilac) based rabbits and you could ONLY get a chocolate steel and that kit definitly looks like a black steel and not a chocolate steel

Also it is IMPOSSIBLE for a broken chocolate (aa bb C_ D_ E_) bred to a REW (__ __ cc __ __) to produce both REW and chinchilla so a different buck must have fathered that litter as well.

 

[Zass]

Dood has some good points. <br /><br /> __________ Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:48 pm __________ <br /><br /> So...what other bucks are on the property?

 

[imajpm]

Yep, this is why I'm here.

Broken Choc buck

Litter one (broken choc doe) : two steels. The steel buck is chocolate. The color is washed out in that picture. My phone does not do quality
Litter two(blue doe): REW, chocolate, black, broken choc and black. 13 kits, all looked normal.
Litter three(Rew doe) : REW, chinchilla, and silver tipped steel (this one is black)

Same buck, all three litters.

Broken chocolate doe from the first litter x different buck = choc and broken choc kits, no steel. Not any visible anyhow.

If agouti is masked by steel then the Broken choc buck might be agouti? What confuses me is litter 2 where there is no steel, no agouti of any kind. That doe is blue, carrying chocolate, rew, and non-extension.

third litter is a NZW. She may have the agouti to produce that chin. Dunno. <br /><br /> __________ Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:17 pm __________ <br /><br /> Bucks.

Broken chocolate Satin
Chocolate Satin
Agouti German Angora
NZW

Did I mention the black steel in litter 3 was broken? I know what buck I used.

 

[Zass]

An agouti or red who doesn't carry self is the best way to turn up hidden steels.

Steel cannot hide on either of those coats, so at least you know the agouti has no steel.

NZW are notorious steel carriers, but two rews bred together can only make more rew.

 

[Dood]

Broken Choc buck

Litter three(Rew doe) : REW, chinchilla, and silver tipped steel (this one is black)

as I said - this is impossible.

A REW cannot hide chinchilla, the buck could have a chinchilla gene but then he cannot have a REW gene to produce that colour of kit.

Broken Choc buck

Litter one (broken choc doe) : two steels. The steel buck is chocolate. The color is washed out in that picture. My phone does not do quality

Alright, then the doe is likey a super steel chocolate agouti = A_ bb C_ D_ EsEs

 

[imajpm]

REW can hide agouti though.

This is why I am here asking. I know rew cannot hide chin, pointed, or any variation of c. The chinchilla is there so it has to be from that buck. Perhaps I should just eat him.

I made no mistakes with record keeping and I only have one broken buck so its impossible for any other buck to have fathered any of those litters.

According to his kits, this buck carries, rew, chin, and steel. Could he be self chin carrying steel? If he wasn't the sweetest buck in the barn he would really be annoying me.

I have a copper doe that I can try. She is carrying self though. *sighs*

 

[Dood]

Oops... I forgot about self chins :roll: that would rule out him being an agouti so the chocolate and REW does must be agouti.

I've never seen a self chocolate chin, I have lots of self black chins and they all have blue-grey eyes like my chinchilla rabbits. Does the buck have odd coloured eyes?

He could certainly carry steel as well and be = aa bb cchd c D_ Es_

 

[akane]

Broken chocolate steel self chin.... that is either a lot of fun or a nightmare. :lol:

 

[imajpm]

His eyes were blue as a kit, then turned brown. I totally forgot about that. He is also an odd chocolate color. Very dark compared to the regular chocolate Satins.

If I can pinpoint the source it might be fun As of now its a bit of a nightmare. I don't want any of this junk getting out into someone elses breeding program.

__________ Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:20 pm __________

Ok sooo this is an overdue update lol but it gets worse.

So I bred the above mentioned chocolate doe to an AA buck to see if she was the super steel hiding agouti. She had 7 kits and all were classic agouti. No steel at all. So her first litter with this crazy buck got the agouti from him plus the steel.

Is it possible for a super steel to hide everything? According to all of his kits he is Aa bb cchdc DD EsEs? Is he a chocolate chin super steel? *sighs* His eyes as a kit were blue, and now brown. I could show him as a self but he is sooo disqualified lol.

Oh heck now I am really confused since no signs of steel + agouti showed up in that blue does litter. There were 13 so statistically they should have.

 

[Zass]

A silver tip (chinchilla steel) can mask as a self just like a gold tipped steel can.

I bet it's just as much of a nightmare to determine masked silver tipped steel:
A_ Cchd_ Es_
from self chin who just carries steel:
aa Cchd_Es_

as it is separate masked agouti steels from selfs who carry steel...

You wouldn't believe how many times I bred super steels to agouti and got only one or two visibly steel kits in litters of 10-12. My masked steels just seemed to have abnormally high chances of throwing more masked steels. Probably why it's said to be able to hide for generations.

__________ Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:37 pm __________

You know what I LOVE about harlequins

Steel is completely impossible for one to ever have or hide, and still be visibly harlequin.

 

[imajpm]

For the love of.....I should use him for a "Guess the color of the kits" contest, but that would be pure evil. At least I know I am not going insane. Changing his name to Secret Agent Man!

Thanks Zass he is retired except for the occasional meat litter and is a lovely pet. Very sweet but yeesh that line of Satins is a mess! Those breeders were trying to breed for a natural tri color. Every little faint patch they viewed as "progress" I never saw any tri's in any of them but they sure got alot of other stuff hidden in there in the process. It's a miracle that doe ended up clean....I think, hehe. The lady I got him from still owes me a doe but has since vanished and I think I am just going to drop the matter lol.