What would I get if...*with sunlight pics!*

[bikegurl]

I bred a harlequinized chestnut buck to:

a. Harlequinized chestnut
b. self black (could turn out to GTS or be masked steel)
c. fawn
d. chocolate

All of these have the same sire....Zass's Magpie Harlequin who's genotype is AA Bb CC DD ejej, I believe. The two dams have similar genotypes, one of which is __ Bb Cc dd EsE. I'm not sure what the other doe's is, but I know it is similar.
When I have a chance, I will try to get pictures of the buck and his four options for does, since I'm not totally sure I have their colors right.

I'm looking for lots of color variety. I thought I would like the chocolate, but I'm unimpressed, so I'd only keep her if she would throw lots of interesting variety.

I'm asking, since I'm still rather clueless regarding genetics... ...and am hoping for some idea of what I'd likely get in these pairings. That way I'll be better able to choose who to keep.

(The black doe is such a friendly one! and I do like the fawns! but I want to keep the harliquenized one! and I only have so much space! Hmmm....I appear to be exhibiting some of the symptoms of rabbitosis.... )
So yeah...help me keep my rabbits under control! :lol: :x

 

[skysthelimit]

I think I'll leave this one for Dood, I've had way too much coffee for the kind of focus, because you have many variables.

What are the parents of the Chestnut? Need to know more about recessives (does it carry self, dilute, chocolate?)

a) More chestnuts, perhaps a Harlie, more blanks because of stuff mentioned above
b) More chestnuts, maybe steel, maybe harlie, because of stuff mentioned above
c) more chestnuts, possible harlie, more blanks
d) more chestnut, more blanks.

Chocolate could throw chocolate, blue if carrying dilute, lilac if carrying dilute, harlie if carrying e or ej.

i'm sure Dood or Akane will clean this up, or I'll be back after the coffee wears off. :coffeebath: :coffeebath: :coffeebath: :coffeebath:

 

[Zass]

The sire of the harlequinized chinchilla kits is a magpie harlequin who appears to have a very solid genotype.
I really think he's AA Bb cchdcchd DD ejej I'd I typed that wrong in a different post, I'm sorry, he's definitely chinchilla based.

The dams are _a bb CC dd EsE
and _a Bb Cc dd Es E

All will have at least one recessive copy of dilute, and chocolate if they came from Dove, since she's lilac colored.

Heather's will all have dilute with a high chance of carrying chocolate since both parents have a recessive copy. I think, about 25% of the kits will not have inherited it from either parent.
So...

A) Bred to a litter mate or a kit from the other litter: Chestnut, opal, chocolate, chestnut, and lynx. Chinchilla, chocolate chinchilla, squirrel and lilac chinchilla. Harlequin in black, blue chocolate and lilac. and chinchilla harlequin variants so black, blue, chocolate, and lilac and magpie. And self shades. The dams probably carry self. So you might see selfs or torted(self based) harlequins...again in black blue chocolate or lilac.

There is a possibility that a kit from Heather may not have chocolate, you will know if you never see any of the chocolate and lilac colors.

B) Possibly all the colors above + gold and silver tipped steel if the kit has it

C) You got a fawn out of my magpie harlequin buck :? Pic please?

D) Chocolate is the same as the black. All of the colors I listed for the first one should apply + gold tipped and silver tipped steel variants in all 4 shades if it has steel.

 

[skysthelimit]

See, dang coffee addiction, missed the chin.

Fawn--- got some loose e's floating around?

 

[Zass]

See, dang coffee addiction, missed the chin.

Fawn--- got some loose e's floating around?

Explanation: Both Sr does were bred to my magpie buck for Bikegurl.

I don't think they had e.

I haven't test bred the buck with any e carrying does because the only one I have is Mucky, but so far, ALL of his kits with my girls seems to have the harlequin gene. I have a litter of 100% harlequinized chinchilla and chocolate chinchilla kits from a doe with who seems to be EE...which suggests he's probably carrying two copies of ej...

Both the meat does she has have had large litters with ee or Ee rabbits (orange or tort velveteens, because I like to test breed everything)

They never produced any non-extension colors.. Not that one or two big litters is conclusive. :lol: We all know how squirrely recessives can be.

If those girls could throw fawns with a harli, they could have thrown some visual harlequins too though..

 

[bikegurl]

OK, thanks for the replies! I finally got some pictures....and you can all correct me as much as needed! I really have a difficult time getting my brain around the genetics, so if I'm saying, spelling, naming, etc. something wrong, don't be afraid to let me know!

The 'fawn'...or maybe something else...
[album]3359[/album]
[album]3358[/album]
[album]3357[/album]

The harlequinized chestnut...or maybe it goes by another name...
[album]3356[/album]
[album]3355[/album]

The chocolate...I think I got this one right... :?
[album]3354[/album]

The buck that I'm planning on keeping looks similar to the chestnut doe(I don't have pictures of him yet due to weather and a demanding child :roll: ) He has a very straight line down the center of his face and has more brown that black. I will try to get a picture of him if the child takes a nap or it stops raining....

 

[Zass]

I think that fawn is one of your harlequinized chocolate agouti kits?

I agree he looks a lot like what you would seen in pics of fawns now, but I don't remember any fawns in your nestboxes when you submitted pics before.

Harlequinized chestnut is the correct name for the second one, unless it's also a steel. :lol: You would know it it had any clean white agouti marks at any point though.

The last one has the phenotype of self chocolate.

I suspect it's a sneaky hidden chocolate agouti steel. Probably Esej.

The only real way to find out would be to breed to a true genetic self and see agouti kits in the nestbox. I know that's next to impossible.. Since in meat rabbits a huge amount of "selfs" don't seems to be actual selfs. :roll:

We've found sneaky self-looking steels in cali, new zealand, american and silver fox.

__________ Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:01 pm __________

Dood, Akane?

More opinions would help!!!

 

[bikegurl]

Here're a few pictures of this kit when it was younger...
The reason I was calling it fawn is in another thread Dood said it could be a few different things, one of them fawn. I just arbitrarily chose fawn, and was calling it that. It looks similar to other pictures of fawns....but I really don't know what a fawn genotype would be....that is, what makes a fawn a fawn...
[album]3329[/album][album]3327[/album][album]3314[/album][album]3314[/album]

 

[Zass]

Fawn is agouti and non extension. In some breeds it's only fawn if it's dilute too.

Non extension messes with the fur colors, making torts out of selfs, fawn orange or red out of agouti, and frostys out of chinchillas.

Genetically, what we call fawn is usually the same as orange or red. A_ ee
Although red usually requires more rufus modifiers and the recessive at wideband ww.

Chocolate fawn and chocolate agouti are not too far apart.

Your looking at
A_ bb C_ D_ ee
VS
A_bb C_ D_ E_

Fawn lacks the ticking agouti would have, and has a cleaner orange color.

Chocolate based fawn especially should look like a very clean orange.

Newborn fawns often look pink all over and require a days worth of fur growth to start looking more orange.


Here are some pics of fawns or reds:
First pic is a chocolate based red rex, the others are mutts.

If you look in the nestbox, you can see the fawn kits lack the darker chocolate color your kits have. Instead showing pale orange the whole time.

 

[bikegurl]

So what I have is chocolate agouti...right?

 

[Zass]

Yeah, I'm 99% positive that is exactly what you have. Pretty sure I'm seeing some harli smut on his belly too.
Educated guess for genotype, keeping parents in consideration:
A(A or a) bb C cchd Dd Eej

 

[bikegurl]

Hmmm...thanks! There is definitely gray smudging on all three kits colored this way. So are they .....harlequinized chocolate agouti?.... :?

 

[Dood]

OK, thanks for the replies! I finally got some pictures....and you can all correct me as much as needed! I really have a difficult time getting my brain around the genetics, so if I'm saying, spelling, naming, etc. something wrong, don't be afraid to let me know!

The 'fawn'...or maybe something else...
[album]3359[/album]
[album]3358[/album]
[album]3357[/album]

The harlequinized chestnut...or maybe it goes by another name...
[album]3356[/album]
[album]3355[/album]

The chocolate...I think I got this one right... :?
[album]3354[/album]

The buck that I'm planning on keeping looks similar to the chestnut doe(I don't have pictures of him yet due to weather and a demanding child :roll: ) He has a very straight line down the center of his face and has more brown that black. I will try to get a picture of him if the child takes a nap or it stops raining....

I see

Chocolate fawn ? :shrug:
Harli Chocolate agouti
Self chocolate

 

[TF3]

I have harlequinized chestnut kits right now...

They are about 5 weeks now, you can see the harlequinized one behind the more standard chestnut.
And this harle face...


Last litter there were three that appeared fawn but definitely were bluish at the points... and mom is an eje

Right now I have a fawn that is starting to look pointed, so I would guess a tort coming out of the ee mixed with everything else.

So endlessly interesting!

 

[bikegurl]

I see

Harli Chocolate agouti

How is it agouti? It doesn't have a white belly visible....( I could go check it...I forgot to look at its belly when I was taking pictures)

 

[Dood]

I see

Harli Chocolate agouti

How is it agouti? It doesn't have a white belly visible....( I could go check it...I forgot to look at its belly when I was taking pictures)

It's not a torted chocolate Harli so it must be an agouti chocolate Harli, the steel and/or wideband gene could also be limiting the white

You labeled it as. a "harlequinized chestnut" which is also known as black agouti Harli, I just think it might be a harlequinized chocolate chestnut

 

[Zass]

Maybe some sunlight pics could help us decide.

Agouti marks include white or cream inside the ears, around the nose, eye circles, belly, underside of tail, and lighter color on the tops of the feet, usually.
They don't disappear without some genetic reason... Generally wideband, harlequin, or steel.

The harlequin marks your kits have everywhere really messes with things, and steel certainly doesn't help. :lol: Steel alone is considered complicated enough for most people.

Oh, Zinnia is pretty good with colors too. So if you see this, you should weigh in. I tend to think the angora people have the most challenging colors to work with, due to how the longer fur distorts things.

For reference, a chocolate based rabbit will have no black hairs at all.

__________ Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:39 pm __________

I actually believe it may be genetically impossible to have, steel(Es_), non-steeled harlequinized agoutis(E ej), and visual non-extension(ee) kits in these litters.

The buck could only possibly be ejej or eje since he's visually magpie.
(the presence of E or Es would totally change his appearance)


To get visual non-extension colors(like orange or fawn, ee), both parents must be carriers, since it's recessive to everything on the extension locus.

And both does definitely have Es (steel) since they came out of super steel(EsEs) SF bucks and have thrown plenty of steeled kits to non steeled agouti bucks. (Nice opals, and such)

If the does were Es e (and thus capable of throwing fawns) you wouldn't have gotten any harlequinized non-steeled agoutis in their litters to a magpie buck.
The only way to get a non-steeled harlequinized agouti is with E ej. A magpie cannot have E, so it HAS to have come from the does.

And if they already have Es and E there is nowhere for e to be, since each locus only has two alleles..

So even if the buck had ej e, the does cannot have non-extension, steel, and full color at the same time, and thus, that kit cannot be a fawn.

Anyone follow this?

 

[skysthelimit]

Yes.

I couldn't see where any loose e's were coming from either.

The Fawn looks like my Amber Rex, and with the presence of steel or even harlie, the agouti marks can go away. I've seen brindling so dark and wide spread it completely over takes the belly color of a Chestnut. And some Chestnuts arent really clean to begin with, my Angora chestnuts do not have the same width of agouti markings that I am used to seeing.

 

[Zass]

The Fawn looks like my Amber Rex.

That reminds me, the red rex above was sold to me as an amber(chocolate agouti).

It was really embarrassing when the judge told me he was chocolate based red.
But, a second judge confirmed it for us.

 

[bikegurl]

Maybe these photos will help ID the coloring/genotype of these rabbits.....?

Sunny pictures of a non-fawn rabbit....
[album]3361[/album]
[album]3360[/album]

Here is the buck I'm keeping...he is more brown than the doe I posted pics of earlier...
[album]3363[/album]
[album]3362[/album]

And here are some more pictures of the doe I posted earlier...
[album]3364[/album]
[album]3365[/album]