What determines growth rate

[cmfarm]

So this morning I was thinking about what is the best way to breed toward faster growing kits. And that got me thinking, what determines the growth rate the most. Genetics, or the mothers milk productions (which I guess genetics fall into play a bit there as well). :?

 

[Marinea]

Of my four breeding does, I have two that produce kits that grow much faster than the other two. All four get the same food, have the same living conditions, and three of the four have been bred to the same buck.

One of the does with smaller kits is the daughter of the other doe with smaller kits. One of the ones with larger kits is also the daughter of that same doe, but she was bred to a different buck. I will be replacing one of these with a daughter from the other original doe who has fast growing kits.

*shrug* Not sure about a scientific answer to your question, but for my rabbitry, it sure seems that genetics plays a part.

 

[Dood]

Both.

Kits from a litter of 12 will be smaller at weaning than those from a litter 6 but most will catch up and their adult size is not effected. However, since rabbits are usually butchered between 8 to 16 week, reaching an optimal adult size is not the goal but getting to 5 pounds in 8 weeks is

To breed towards faster growing you must juggle between keeping replacement stock from does who can comfortably feed 8 kits and with kits that grow out the fastest - you need to decide which factor to work on first and then work on the other

Poor milk production was never a problem with my rabbits so I could focus on growth but then I changed their diet and their growth slowed significantly :x then I got disease and my kits were getting wiped out finally I am focussing just on growth again as I am pretty happy with all the other production traits - in the upcoming years beautification and eliminating unwanted colour genes will be my goals

 

[cmfarm]

Another question: Does the buck usually contribute to the kit growth rate on the first generation, or do they take on the mothers growth rate genes? (I hope that makes sense).

 

[Becky]

Another question: Does the buck usually contribute to the kit growth rate on the first generation, or do they take on the mothers growth rate genes? (I hope that makes sense).

Yes, I would imagine that since the buck provides half of the kits' genetics on every allele, he would have a significant impact on the kits growth rate

 

[Zass]

Genetics(from both parents), the doe's milk supply, and efficiency of digestion.

Most are aware that a digestive upset in a kit stunts growth drastically, but I was stunned when I hit on a combination of feeds last year that reduced my growout time by several weeks. Turns out the pellets I was feeding has some nutritional imbalances, and I managed to sort them out, just by monitoring what feeds produced the best growth. It taught me one of those special lessons about rabbits.

optimum nutrition+digestion=optimum growth rates.

I've seen(online and in RL)...literally HUNDREDS of people bone that up thinking that more calories or more protein will automatically produce better growth.

That may work with other livestock, but not with rabbits.
Often as not kits are killed or severely stunted after their GI bacteria get thrown out of wack by the overly rich feed.

Over on facebook, I see people say not to feed HAY, because it takes up space int heir guts that could be used for more calories. Again, rabbits are not other livestock!!!

I feel hay improves digestion, and thus improves growth.

Ottersatin has frequently mentioned that lines are culled to thrive on whatever we decide to feed, and that the brand of feed you chose isn't as important as picking one and sticking with it.

No digestive upsets whatsoever= best growth that genetics will allow for.

I simply couldn't say that enough.

So... when we select from only the fastest growing kits in a litter, we're making sure we keep the ones that thrive on what we feed. If we keep the fastest growing kits from the best does...I don't think it takes many generations to get a good line.

My lines are a bit odd, as I have some very heavy milking does who often do not stop "supplementing" their babies with milk until 8-9 weeks. Those does grow me some big fryers if left with their kits. I believe that the antibodies in the milk boost their immune systems and help protect from disease and parasites. I also think having continued access to the does cecotropes probably helps protect them from GI imbalances for longer.

Others have claimed that their kits struggled and didn't thrive at all when left with the doe past 4 weeks. Makes me wonder about what breed back rate they were attempting, cage size, doe temperaments...There are just so many factors involved when sorting out the best approach for everyone's setup.

 

[cmfarm]

I am trying to fit the pieces of the puzzle together to get the best I can out of what I have to work with. It is hard to know what route to take sometimes. Feed is something that crosses my mind. There are so many different kinds out there, it is hard to know if what I have is good or not.
I also wasn't sure if you would see the genetics of the male in the first breeding or if you would only see the it in the following generation (which is why I asked). But is sounds like you should be able to see it in the first. This is one reason things are tricky when you buy rabbits as adults. I really don't know much history of the growth rates of the rabbits when they where youngsters. So while they are decent looking adults, I have no idea how they grew when they where younger. So it makes it hard to know how to approach things. Is it the does, the buck, or both causing the slow growth. That is what I need to figure out.

 

[Zass]

I am trying to fit the pieces of the puzzle together to get the best I can out of what I have to work with. It is hard to know what route to take sometimes. Feed is something that crosses my mind. There are so many different kinds out there, it is hard to know if what I have is good or not.
I also wasn't sure if you would see the genetics of the male in the first breeding or if you would only see the it in the following generation (which is why I asked). But is sounds like you should be able to see it in the first. This is one reason things are tricky when you buy rabbits as adults. I really don't know much history of the growth rates of the rabbits when they where youngsters. So while they are decent looking adults, I have no idea how they grew when they where younger. So it makes it hard to know how to approach things. Is it the does, the buck, or both causing the slow growth. That is what I need to figure out.

The male genes definitely make a first generation difference. Consider how hybrid vigor works. Just from the buck being from a different breed and thus genetically different from the doe, it can sometimes produce drastically better growth rates, but only in first generation crosses.

I always suggest people buy their meat kits at 8 weeks old , even if it isn't the law in there state.
(and from people who like the taste of rabbit)
It just seems practical to get a good view of what the line produces at that age.

Some breeders will lie and sell 12 week old kits as 8 week olds though...

 

[Rainey]

I'm perhaps overly focused on milk production at the moment, but it seems that is a major piece of the growth rate picture. Some kits from a litter either get more milk from the start or make better use of it. Maybe that is part of what Zass was saying about digestibility.
At least I can see that happening, see which kits grow well. But when we were choosing does to keep and breed this year, what should we have looked for? We kept the largest, daughters of the doe that consistently kindled 8 and raised them all. Was there something else we should have considered? Or just kept more to try because you can't tell before they're bred what sort of mothers they'll make?
The advice about feed that makes the most sense to me is to get or keep rabbits that do well on the type of feed you plan to use. We were pleased with the growth we got on natural feed our first season and hoped by keeping the best does raised that way we'd do better this year. So far the sticking point is the first couple weeks--and that is back to the does' ability to produce and willingness to feed. So many factors and so many different opinions or approaches.

 

[Zass]

Or just kept more to try because you can't tell before they're bred what sort of mothers they'll make?

I have found that growing out about twice as many does as I plan to keep is more expensive in the short term, but it allows me to be pretty selective, and gives wiggle room for harsher culling. I suspect it's been saving me time and money in the long run.


You know your doe was a good mother, but you really don't know what kind of mothers were in the buck's line..and your current does have inherited both sets of genes. :shrug:

 

[ladysown]

best thing I have done with my herd is the following protocol

Really really look at your three day old kits and mark the biggest and most solid of them. For my lines, I get a lot of colour differences in my kits so it's generally not hard for me to know who is who, but for those with same colours, sharpies are your friend.

THOSE will most likely be your keepers.

Realize that all sorts of things can throw them off. For instance, had a holland lop kit almost die on me (dragged out of box and almost frozen). it's currently 1/2 the size of it's litter mates. Prior to this, it was the biggest, nicest looking of the litter. Right now I wonder if it will even make it to eight weeks. A day missed feeding doesn't throw them off that much, but two days does. BUT you want kits that can utilize the feed they are given in the best manner. At three days old, you can generally tell that.

Check them again at 9-10 days. Any with nestbox eye cross of your list. They are disease carriers and you don't want to keep them. Also check them for growth and heft in your hand at that point. Solid, big kits is what you want. (or in the case of fancies... just nice healthy-feeling kits).. Type comes later.

Check those kits again at four-five weeks and either pull the biggest and best out to grow them separate or leave them with mom and pull the rest out. The bottom of the pack are your lunch rabbits, the top 1/3 you grow them out.

Mom's milk and genetics plays a big role, but so does the ability of the kits to utilize the feed at hand. Having "check mark" days has helped in my rabbitry and I'm getting nicer rabbits as I move forward with my meat mutt program.

 

[michaels4gardens]

like Grumpy has said-- a doe will only be as good as the worst day it had as a young rabbit, so add that to all the advise you have here, - [try to make sure there are no upsets with the young litter]
-- I keep my best and breed to my best, and cull the rest-- once you have had your genetics for a few generations [and kept good records] you will know what you have ,and what you want more of.

 

[Rainey]

best thing I have done with my herd is the following protocol

Really really look at your three day old kits and mark the biggest and most solid of them. For my lines, I get a lot of colour differences in my kits so it's generally not hard for me to know who is who, but for those with same colours, sharpies are your friend.

THOSE will most likely be your keepers.

Realize that all sorts of things can throw them off. For instance, had a holland lop kit almost die on me (dragged out of box and almost frozen). it's currently 1/2 the size of it's litter mates. Prior to this, it was the biggest, nicest looking of the litter. Right now I wonder if it will even make it to eight weeks. A day missed feeding doesn't throw them off that much, but two days does. BUT you want kits that can utilize the feed they are given in the best manner. At three days old, you can generally tell that.

Check them again at 9-10 days. Any with nestbox eye cross of your list. They are disease carriers and you don't want to keep them. Also check them for growth and heft in your hand at that point. Solid, big kits is what you want. (or in the case of fancies... just nice healthy-feeling kits).. Type comes later.

Check those kits again at four-five weeks and either pull the biggest and best out to grow them separate or leave them with mom and pull the rest out. The bottom of the pack are your lunch rabbits, the top 1/3 you grow them out.

Mom's milk and genetics plays a big role, but so does the ability of the kits to utilize the feed at hand. Having "check mark" days has helped in my rabbitry and I'm getting nicer rabbits as I move forward with my meat mutt program.

Your protocol is really helpful to me in trying to see how to move forward with my meat mutts. Thank you for posting it. As always, I have a couple questions

When you're keeping the top 1/3 to grow out, is that regardless of whether they're bucks or does?

If you breed all the keepers that you grow out, you must have an ever-expanding herd. In our first rabbit year we raised 35 kits from 2 does and butchered all but 3. Those were does that we chose and kept to breed this year. But if we'd kept a third, even if half of those were bucks, we'd have at least 5 does to breed this year and if we kept a third of their kits . . . Given our experience so far this spring, I can see that it would have been better to keep more does so we'd have more to choose from after seeing how they do at kindling and rearing kits. So how do you keep from balance having enough breeding stock to choose from with keeping your herd size manageable? Or in your situation is more rabbits always better?

Last year I was pleased when the one doe had a litter of 8 each time with little difference in the size of the kits within the litter. Do you see it as a good thing to have one or two kits in a litter that are way ahead of the others in just a few days?

And how many seasons do you keep the does and buck(s) you're breeding? Or how do you decide whether to replace them with the youngsters you've chosen?

 

[skysthelimit]

When you're keeping the top 1/3 to grow out, is that regardless of whether they're bucks or does?

If you breed all the keepers that you grow out, you must have an ever-expanding herd. In our first rabbit year we raised 35 kits from 2 does and butchered all but 3. Those were does that we chose and kept to breed this year. But if we'd kept a third, even if half of those were bucks, we'd have at least 5 does to breed this year and if we kept a third of their kits . . . Given our experience so far this spring, I can see that it would have been better to keep more does so we'd have more to choose from after seeing how they do at kindling and rearing kits. So how do you keep from balance having enough breeding stock to choose from with keeping your herd size manageable? Or in your situation is more rabbits always better?

Last year I was pleased when the one doe had a litter of 8 each time with little difference in the size of the kits within the litter. Do you see it as a good thing to have one or two kits in a litter that are way ahead of the others in just a few days?

And how many seasons do you keep the does and buck(s) you're breeding? Or how do you decide whether to replace them with the youngsters you've chosen?

Interesting.
An heir, a spare and an I don't care, because things don't always go as planned. More is usually better.

I have several different purposes for raising rabbits, so I do keep the top 1/3 whether bucks or does, but as soon as they are proven, I only keep the top 1/3 of that 1/3 and the others are sold. If the rabbit produces as good as or better than itself, it's moved on, and that generation takes it's place. If not, it's culled.


The average life span of a rabbit here is 2 years, to keep the numbers manageable, I have a high turn over. I don't have a single rabbit now that I had when I first became a RT member. Except for the Angoras and two Woolies, I don't have any that I had from last year.

 

[ladysown]

in my meat herd, I only sell as BREEDERS the top 1/3. People can buy the others but I don't sell them as breeding animals, and I'm upfront saying "I wouldn't breed that and this is why". I only keep what I need from the top 1/3. This year that was three rabbits, the top does from three separate litters. I was highly tempted to keep a young buck but then someone gave me one who at five months of age is 10.5 lbs. He's HUGE (I normally aim for a 8-9 lb rabbit). And he's breeding. So I'm keeping my old buck (he is such a sweetie) and am using new boy (not quite as much a sweetie, but he's so pretty and is nice mannered) on my girls and then i have a buyer waiting for him. I hope to have something worthwhile to keep from the new boy.

I have buyers every year for my year old stock ... I only keep one doe back and sell the rest. I don't have room to keep all my growers. I cull out the bottom 2/3 usually by 3-4 pounds as I've a snake buyer who takes 'em. of the top third..I'll cull the bucks first. Last I cull the does. I've a dog food person who takes anything of any size so I always have that out.

My goal is to sell them live. But I'll eat the does (even GOOD does) if I can't sell them. I never eat bucks. Had one I thought was disgusting and so just don't do them anymore.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I breed rabbits until they start to fail ,for does- either by decreasing litter size, or decreasing 8 week litter weights, or- for bucks, if they start throwing smaller litters or have trouble getting on and getting the job done.
For some rabbits, that is over 6 years, for others it is much less then 2 years.

 

[Dood]

Some replacement does only get one litter before being replaced - I don't follow the "3 chances rule"

3 does just had first litters
- all had 8 to 10 kits
- all are feeding 8 kits without issue and kit weights are about equal
- one had a chocolate :x she's out of the gene pool at 6 months old
- one is dumping her food out :groooan: she's on my short list and if she has any other issues she's gone .

 

[Zass]

Some replacement does only get one litter before being replaced - I don't follow the "3 chances rule"

3 does just had first litters
- all had 8 to 10 kits
- all are feeding 8 kits without issue and kit weights are about equal
- one had a chocolate :x she's out of the gene pool at 6 months old
- one is dumping her food out :groooan: she's on my short list and if she has any other issues she's gone .

That's about what I expect from mine, barring SF neuroticism, which usually just gets me bit, but doesn't harm the litter. I have no need to cull for recessives at this time, since the gene I'm fighting is visible on the coat I want and my obsession with genetic purity has thus far kept the line very predictable.

I've never allowed a doe to fail three times either. My logic is, if poor mothering isn't already in the lines....I wouldn't want to introduce it by babying a bad mother along.

I think doing the initial breeding when the does indicate they are ready instead of going by ages or dates probably helps a lot.

I have one who is telling me she's ready for her first litter now. (That squirrel doe, actually. She's getting to be a BIG girl.) She's just started getting jumpy like that harli was a month ago, and chinning her surroundings. I can't breed her until July....so. opcorn: I wonder if she'll give me trouble.

I can see why a lot of breeder's do recommend three strikes to people new to the hobby. Three litters gives a chance to get familiar with the rabbits and rule out operator error, and it would give fatty adult stock a chance to get their stuff working before being ruled out as brood animals.

My does are in and out pretty fast, as I've been focused on development. As soon as they have given me an animal I'm convinced is going to be a superior replacement, they are out. With both bucks and does, I've learned not to cull until the up and coming juniors have proven themselves capable to breed.

 

[aussiegirl]

Most of my rabbits had their litters about 2 wks ago but I have been weighing one particular litter of 5 daily before their morning feed (I bring this litter inside every night) as these are BIG kits.
They have just turned 15 days old and weigh in grams:
.293; .308; .318; .332; .422

I know it's not a huge litter but I aim between 5 kits minimum - 8 kits max, I personally don't like large litters of 10 or more as the kits tend to be a lot smaller ( although I do have several does that always have between
10 - 15 kits.

Both Dam & Sire are Californian, this is the first litter for the doe after 3 failed attempts (was going to be re-homed if she didn't kindle this time, I couldn't bring myself to cull her as she is a nice looking & well tempered rabbit).

Has anyone had kits around this size?
thanks

 

[Dood]

10 to 14 ounces at 2 weeks is pretty good but not uncommon, especially considering there are only 5 in the litter.

I was getting those weights regularly when feeding an 18% protein pellet and had smaller litters but I havent had them with my new hay and forage diet and I rarely have litters of less than 8 with my current does