What Colour Is She?

[Dood]

Shaded rabbits can also ruin a BEW eye colour. I do not recall Dobby (or Firecracker's) colour so cannot tell you what will happen. If they carry blue or shaded then you may not get the desired BEW eye colour.

If you want to focus on BEW it would be best to eventually eliminate shaded, dilute/blue and chocolate from your herd.

There will still be a pet demand for any kits with vienna markings and BEW with out the sparkling blue eyes. Dont be in a rush to show, as you have admitted, you still need to work on manes, size and body type with your rabbits, these can cost you ribbons just as easily as an improper eye colour.

Breed for any BEW and keep back the ones with the best temperament, type and manes. Try trading your surplus adults for vienna carriers with good type and pet trade attitudes that do not have shaded, blue or chocolate in their family tree or buy such a rabbit from your kit profits.

Establishing a good line takes time, selective breeding and many generations, especially when working with unknown genetics. Some try and fast track by spending the big bucks on the colours they want or already proven stock, but as you learned the hard way, that doesn't always work out either. Some die in quarantine, some turn out to be infertile, and some kill their kits. Breeding is a hard game to play.

 

[Bad Habit]

Dobby = Blue/Hannah's Dad
Firecracker is broken chestnut(I think ) but I've sold him.

I also have
Buckley - Sable point poss vc - New buck, pedigreed, small, great mane/skirt.
Crystal - Sable point vm - new doe, pedigree, small, great mane/skirt, Buckley's mum.
Star - Orange/chestnut-ish - new doe, pedigree, a little big but good mane/skirt.

Those three could go on the show table. Star was on, when she was thinner, but was DQ for not having clean colour. I can't remember if Crystal or Buckley had been on the table.

I do want to get something on the table this year, I want to get that experience. Not rushing so much as hoping. I'm sure I'm going to have to mostly focus on the three I just bought, and breed something from them. I could also breed Hannah to Buckley, but will probably get heavy VM. If I breed just within that new trio, I should get some good manes/skirts.

I'm trying to make a plan that will give me something for on the table by late summer/early fall. I don't care if I win or lose, I want to try, and I want that experience. If it means scrapping BEW for now, then so be it.

 

[Dood]

Alright, good plan.

I was under the impression that you wanted

.
to put some BEW Lionheads on the show table this year,

. Current COD Varieties (15): Black, Blue, Blue-Eyed White, Blue Point, Chestnut Agouti, Chocolate, Pointed White (all 4 varieties shown as one class), Red, Ruby-eyed White, Sable Point, Seal, Siamese Sable, Silver Marten (all 4 varieties shown as one class), Smoke Pearl, and Tortoise (all 4 varieties shown as one class).

And in 2013 the first two colours that will likely get ARBA approval are tort and REW.

Since the new buns have the best type, I would breed the two sable points.

If you Breed
Dobby to Hanna - could get you a blue, shaded blue, blue point, blue tort, magpie, blue Vienna and BEW (eyes may be off)
Dobby to Star - you could get chestnut, red, black, tort or harlequin, or vienna
Dobby to Crystal- you could get black, tort or harlequin, or vienna

Buckley to Hanna-you could get sable points, Vienna, BEW (eyes may be off),
Buckley to Star - you could get red or torts
Buckley to Crystal - sable points

Just to name a few.

 

[Bad Habit]

Alright, good plan.

I was under the impression that you wanted

.
to put some BEW Lionheads on the show table this year,

Well, ideally, yes, but if I can't use my current stock, I can't do that just yet, lol. Don't mind putting the BEW project on a back burner while I work towards it. I could have the best rabbits in the world, but if I walk into a show and have a panic attack, or flub something up because I don't have any experience, then I'm still not going to do well at the show. My main goal is to get a rabbit on the table at one show this year.

. Current COD Varieties (15): Black, Blue, Blue-Eyed White, Blue Point, Chestnut Agouti, Chocolate, Pointed White (all 4 varieties shown as one class), Red, Ruby-eyed White, Sable Point, Seal, Siamese Sable, Silver Marten (all 4 varieties shown as one class), Smoke Pearl, and Tortoise (all 4 varieties shown as one class).

And in 2013 the first two colours that will likely get ARBA approval are tort and REW.

Since the new buns have the best type, I would breed the two sable points.

If you Breed
Dobby to Hannah - could get you a blue, shaded blue, blue point, blue tort, magpie, blue Vienna and BEW (eyes may be off)
Dobby to Star - you could get chestnut, red, black, tort or harlequin, or vienna
Dobby to Crystal- you could get black, tort or harlequin, or vienna

Buckley to Hannah-you could get sable points, Vienna, BEW (eyes may be off),
Buckley to Star - you could get red or torts
Buckley to Crystal - sable points

Just to name a few.

Well at the moment, Star and Crystal were bred to FC for February babies. I'm going to breed Star back in Feb, since she's so chunky and can easily handle it. Not sure to whom, though. If I breed to Dobby, then I might get a self vienna, that would improve the breeding of BEWs. Hannah's next breeding will be to Buckley, to find if he carries vienna, and Crystal to Dobby, to confirm her vienna. I am actually unlikely to breed Buckley to Crystal, because having a litter of all the same colour is just soooooo boring .

Tort is shaded, right? What about sable point, is that shaded?

 

[Dood]

Tort is shaded, right? What about sable point, is that shaded?.

Tort is not shaded. A tort is a self rabbit 'aa' ( black, blue, chocolate, or lilac) with non extension 'ee'. Star, who is red, is also non extension but with at least one agouti 'Aa' and maybe two 'AA'

Sable point is shaded. It is also a tort 'aa & ee' that has two light shaded genes 'cchl cchl' or one paired with a himi 'cchl ch' or REW 'cchl c'

 

[Bad Habit]

I think my brain is bleeding...

Okay. Tort good. Sable point bad. So the shaded gene is on the C locus? or the E locus? Once I get this all figured out, I'm getting it tattooed on my arm so I never ever have to learn it again

Thank you again, Dood, for all your help in figuring this out, though.

 

[Dood]

Yes, the shaded gene is on the c locus. (so are the chinchilla, Himalayan and REW) You should avoid any of these recessive mutations to get perfect BEW.

Shaded, chocolate and blue can all change the shade of a BEW eyes, sometimes you hardly notice, sometimes it is very obvious.

My favorite rabbit genetics website is http://www.nockrabbits.com/coat_colors1.html

 

[Bad Habit]

I had a look at that website, very informative!! Added it to my bookmarks.

I'd still like to keep stealing from your brain though, lol! Sometimes you explain things very well. Others... well I get confused .

So... I want to eliminate dilute and shaded.

Sable Point is shaded.
Smoke Pearl Chin is shaded and dilute.

Dobby to Crystal- you could get black, tort or harlequin, or vienna - Save a tort or black VM one of these.
Buckley to Star - you could get red or torts - save a tort vm one of these(assuming Buckley is VM).

Breed those two together.
Perfect BEW?

 

[Dood]

Yes.

The harlequin ( a red with japanese harli) and a red kit would also be suitable mates to get sky BEW.

Assuming body type and mane are good as well you'd have a possible winning BEW with the sky blue eyes.

There are still some unknown genes in your rabbits so there maybe some surprises but I think the odds are in your favour.

 

[Bad Habit]

The fact that the kit from Dobby to Crystal will have a dilute gene, is that going to cause a problem?

Oh, Dood... I'm like Katness, the odds are NEVER in my favour

 

[Dood]

I don't breed BEW so I cannot say for sure, perhaps another thread is needed, but carrying a dilute recessive should not affect the eye colour.

Most rabbit colours are not like Vienna, where having only one recessive gene can have an affect on how the rabbit looks. Normally we have absolutely no idea what recessive colours a rabbit might be carrying which is why we ask about parents, littermates and offspring, we do test breedings and we still have many blank spots in their genotype!

 

[Bad Habit]

Knew that about the recessives, but wasn't sure how far away from dilute I needed to get. The baby just needs to not be dilute or shaded under the BEW, right?

Buckley and/or Crystal may carry REW. That's not a problem is it?

 

[Dood]

Only if your other rabbits also have it.

 

[Bad Habit]

Not that I'm aware of, lol.

I guess Hannah has to have cchl, ch or c with her cchl to be Smoke pearl chin, otherwise she'd just be opal, right?

And if I get a rew under the bew with dilute underneath, I'm guessing the world explodes?

 

[Dood]

Yes, she has a shaded, and REW will completely hide a BEW, just like it does all other rabbit colours, so unfortunately you wont know if a BEW is hiding in there.

 

[Teddy2511]

Sable point is shaded. It is also a tort 'aa & ee' that has two light shaded genes 'cchl cchl' or one paired with a himi 'cchl ch' or REW 'cchl c'

Actually, a sable point (or any "sable family" rabbit) cannot carry two 'cchl' genes; it either has to carry a recessive himi or REW gene. Two "cchl" genes together would produce a seal or seal point.

- - - - -

The Sable Gene — With the sable gene (cchl), we find a slightly different situation than with other genes: incomplete dominance. With other genes, if you pair them with the same gene or one of lower dominance, that gene is expressed. With the sable gene, a pair of them together has a different result than the sable paired with a color gene of lower dominance (e.g., “ch” or “c”). Two sable genes produce a dark sepia color that is almost black, called “seal.” These seal-colored rabbits are “cchl-cchl.

The sable gene removes yellow from hair shafts and removes some of the darker pigments, giving a Holland Lop a shaded look (again, this shaded look is different from the shaded look caused by ee genes). Leaving seal rabbits to their own color family, sable rabbits are either “cchl-ch” or “cchl-c.”

This gene is sometimes called the “shaded” gene, though “sable” is a more correct term, because shadeds such as torts do NOT have the sable gene.

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-genetics/color-c-series-chinchilla-sable-himalayan-rew/<br /><br />__________ Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:49 pm __________<br /><br />Sorry, for interrupting the BEW trail!

 

[Dood]

Actually, a sable point (or any "sable family" rabbit) cannot carry two 'cchl' genes; it either has to carry a recessive himi or REW gene. Two "cchl" genes together would produce a seal or seal point

Seals (and Siamese sables) are extension (E_) but you are right about a tort with two light shaded genes being called Seal point rather than sable point, however, I was just trying to keep it simple and not get into incomplete dominance/recessives.

In general i try to avoid using terms terms like Smoke Pearl or Ermine which really don't tell you much about the genotype.

 

[Teddy2511]

I was just trying to keep it simple and not get into incomplete dominance/recessives.

Okay, just thought I'd clarify.

 

[Bad Habit]

Yes, Keep It Simple for Stupid

 

[Teddy2511]

Yes, Keep It Simple for Stupid

You are not stupid. :shock: :no:

But I can understand wanting to keep it simple; I still have so much to learn about genetics!