What colors will I get.. genetic experts needed LOL

[Blakie83]

So I have a female sable standard Rex , her pedigree has mostly chinchilla and broken chinchilla in her background and a black real far in her background, I bred her to a standard Rex broken lilac buck, I'm wondering if some of you experts out there can tell me what colors I should be expecting?

I really wanted a Harlie or a tricolor.

Last time I bred her to a broken gray buck which was more about 45% gray and I got five wild type looking rabbits two broken fawns and 2 fawns... One of fawns looked like it had a darker brown spot almost on its way to be a Harlie....

I ended up selling all of them because I didn't really like the colors I hope we don't have another repeat but who knows. Wondering if there's any experts out there the girl I got the buck from said he has some lilac torts etc... Don't know what he really has in his background..... Just wondering if anybody good with genetics can give me a clue... Thank you so much!!!
Al

 

[ladysown]

you won't get harle or tricolour out of the breeding. What you got the first time is what you will most likely get again.

To get tricolour you need to have the ej gene... and the easiest way to get that... is to have a broken rabbit and a harlequin.

 

[Blakie83]

you won't get harle or tricolour out of the breeding. What you got the first time is what you will most likely get again.

To get tricolour you need to have the ej gene... and the easiest way to get that... is to have a broken rabbit and a harlequin.

Thank you LOL I just don't know where the fawn color comes from or the wild type color

 

[Alaska Satin]

So I have a female sable standard Rex , her pedigree has mostly chinchilla and broken chinchilla in her background and a black real far in her background, I bred her to a standard Rex broken lilac buck, I'm wondering if some of you experts out there can tell me what colors I should be expecting?

If the doe is really a sable, she can't be carrying any chinchilla, no matter how many are on her pedigree. Sable is <cchl>, which is recessive to chinchilla <cchd>, so if your doe had a chin allele, she'd look like a chin (or sable chin). So she's <cchl_>

Sable is a self variety, so she's <aa>. It is also black-based, so she's <B_>, it's dense so she's <D_>, and it's full-extension so she's <E_>. If she produced fawns, she carries a non-extension <e>.

So, your sable doe is <aaB_cchl_D_Ee enen>
Broken lilac is mostly recessive alleles, so the buck is <aabbC_ddE_En_>

The sure thing is that you should get all self colors <aa>. Roughly half of the litter should be broken colored <Enen> and half solid <enen>, but that can vary somewhat.

You should get some black <Dd>, and possibly blue <dd> (if the doe carries <d>), possibly chocolate (if the doe carries a hidden <b>), and/or lilac (if the doe carries both <d> and <e>).

You should get full-color rabbits, and depending on what other alleles the buck and doe carry at the C locus, there's the possibility of chinchillas, sables, himalayans or REW (ruby-eyed white).

Depending on whether the buck carries a non-extension <e> you could get tort (non-extension self) or ermine (non-extension chinchilla, if he also carries the chin allele).

I really wanted a Harlie or a tricolor.

A tricolor is a broken harlie. You have the broken allele, but as @ladysown said, you need a harlequin allele to get harlie, but the doe cannot carry it since you know she's <Ee>, and it's unlikely that the broken lilac buck carries it without showing any evidence.

Last time I bred her to a broken gray buck which was more about 45% gray and I got five wild type looking rabbits two broken fawns and 2 fawns... One of fawns looked like it had a darker brown spot almost on its way to be a Harlie....

Thank you LOL I just don't know where the fawn color comes from or the wild type color

I'm thinking the broken gray buck you used was a broken chinchilla. That is an agouti color <A_>, which makes chestnut ("wild type"), chinchilla (agouti <A> plus a chin allele <cchd> to suppress the yellow pigment) and fawn (agouti <A> with two dilute genes <dd> and two non-extension alleles <ee>).

 

[Blakie83]

If the doe is really a sable, she can't be carrying any chinchilla, no matter how many are on her pedigree. Sable is <cchl>, which is recessive to chinchilla <cchd>, so if your doe had a chin allele, she'd look like a chin (or sable chin). So she's <cchl_>

Sable is a self variety, so she's <aa>. It is also black-based, so she's <B_>, it's dense so she's <D_>, and it's full-extension so she's <E_>. If she produced fawns, she carries a non-extension <e>.

So, your sable doe is <aaB_cchl_D_Ee enen>
Broken lilac is mostly recessive alleles, so the buck is <aabbC_ddE_En_>

The sure thing is that you should get all self colors <aa>. Roughly half of the litter should be broken colored <Enen> and half solid <enen>, but that can vary somewhat.

You should get some black <Dd>, and possibly blue <dd> (if the doe carries <d>), possibly chocolate (if the doe carries a hidden <b>), and/or lilac (if the doe carries both <d> and <e>).

You should get full-color rabbits, and depending on what other alleles the buck and doe carry at the C locus, there's the possibility of chinchillas, sables, himalayans or REW (ruby-eyed white).

Depending on whether the buck carries a non-extension <e> you could get tort (non-extension self) or ermine (non-extension chinchilla, if he also carries the chin allele).


A tricolor is a broken harlie. You have the broken allele, but as @ladysown said, you need a harlequin allele to get harlie, but the doe cannot carry it since you know she's <Ee>, and it's unlikely that the broken lilac buck carries it without showing any evidence.



I'm thinking the broken gray buck you used was a broken chinchilla. That is an agouti color <A_>, which makes chestnut ("wild type"), chinchilla (agouti <A> plus a chin allele <cchd> to suppress the yellow pigment) and fawn (agouti <A> with two dilute genes <dd> and two non-extension alleles <ee>).

Thank you so much for the info I'll have to get a picture of her and show you guys the man who solder gave me a pedigree sheet and said she was able she does have a darker face and leg quarters and a little lighter gray in the midsection... On her pedigree it says the mother was a sable and the father was a broken chinchilla mothers parents was a broken chinchilla on male side and the females was a chinchilla .... On The father's side, he was a chinchilla The father's father was black and The mother was chinchilla.... The third generation back the parents of the grandparents are all chinchilla except one white one... Hope I haven't confused you more but I do follow what you're saying with the genetics as I did take some genetics and I'm really good with chicken genetics so I understand what you're saying... The one good thing I like about these Rex... Is a run big the female is about 13 lb little fat the new buck is about 11 lb... She had nine her first litter perfectly didn't lose any which the breeder who sold it to me said the mother was the same way..... If I get some pictures I'll post them... Standard Rex are very rare in Connecticut the one breeder I got mine from moved to New York every 6 months she comes and visits her parents and she asks me if I'm looking for anything but she's into torts and broken or whites,. There's not much around here or they're surrounding states every once in awhile they pop up

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Thank you LOL I just don't know where the fawn color comes from or the wild type color

Fawn is ee showing up,
Pretty sure it's A_B_C_D_ee

and wild type is chestnut agouti, full dominant ABCDE with whatever recessives you want thrown in.

 

[Blakie83]

I was just on the website showing sables apparently a lightsaber is considered an otter this is the formula they showed me and it looks exactly like what I havr
C= Normal [BBBBYYY]
Cchd = Dark Chinchilla [BBBBY–]
Cchl = Light Chinchilla [shaded : seal & sable] [BB—–]

 

[judymac]

a lightsaber is considered an otter

OK, first of all this is a different coding than we usually use here for the genetics, so bear with me as I work through this. The four B's and three Y's in your example stand for black and yellow pigment. Think of each letter as standing for a pigment factory. Four B's are full dark pigment, three Y's are full yellow pigment. Your chart shows that full color (like chestnut agouti or black or tortoiseshell) has a full slate of available pigments, even if that color doesn't use them all (like black doesn't have any yellow pigment, but that pigment factory was open if needed.)

Sable is found on what we call the 'C' color gene. Full color is dominant, with all of the dark (eumelanin) and yellow (pheomelanin) pigments expressed. There are four more color options in decreasing dominance below that:
Chinchilla (coded small c with 'chd' for chinchilla dark as superscript, subscript, or in parentheses) keeps all of the dark coloration, but eliminates most (or all) of the yellowish tones. (Brassy chins have a bit of the yellow tint, usually down the spine area.) Next down is the sable you are referring to, with no yellow, and reduced dark coloration--black becomes faded down to sepia brown because of that. Below that is Himalayan/Californian/pointed white, where there is no yellow and dark color only shows on the cooler points, and the body color is white; and finally albino, with all the pigment removed.

Otter is an entirely different gene. This is found on the 'A' agouti gene. Agouti is the dominant choice here--which is shown by the rabbit's light belly, light eye rings, white inside the ear, triangle behind the ears on the back of the neck, and multiple bands of color on the hairshaft. The recessive choice is non-agouti, requiring two recessive 'aa' genes. These are also called self colors, as the entire rabbit is all one color (like black, chocolate, blue, or lilac). No white markings, and a single shade of color on the hairshaft (although the color may lighten as the hairshaft extends.)

Otter/tan/marten is on a third choice, which is recessive to agouti, but dominant over self non-agouti. It is called the tan allele (allele is just a fancy word for a possible choice on a given gene), and is coded a(t). Here, you get all the agouti light markings, but none of the agouti banding on the hairshaft--agouti markings but self coat. If the tan allele is accompanied with the full color C allele, you get what is called an 'otter'. The triangle behind the ears will be yellowish/orange, and there is often a very thin reddish/tan line outlining the white markings (which could be tinted tan if you also have the rufus (reddish) modifiers.

Tan a(t) accompanied by the chinchilla c(chd) or sable c(chl for chinchilla light) alleles will result in a 'marten'. Since both chinchilla and sable remove the yellow tones, a marten will have a pearl white triangle behind the ears, and all the agouti markings will be pearl white.

 

[Blakie83]

OK, first of all this is a different coding than we usually use here for the genetics, so bear with me as I work through this. The four B's and three Y's in your example stand for black and yellow pigment. Think of each letter as standing for a pigment factory. Four B's are full dark pigment, three Y's are full yellow pigment. Your chart shows that full color (like chestnut agouti or black or tortoiseshell) has a full slate of available pigments, even if that color doesn't use them all (like black doesn't have any yellow pigment, but that pigment factory was open if needed.)

Sable is found on what we call the 'C' color gene. Full color is dominant, with all of the dark (eumelanin) and yellow (pheomelanin) pigments expressed. There are four more color options in decreasing dominance below that:
Chinchilla (coded small c with 'chd' for chinchilla dark as superscript, subscript, or in parentheses) keeps all of the dark coloration, but eliminates most (or all) of the yellowish tones. (Brassy chins have a bit of the yellow tint, usually down the spine area.) Next down is the sable you are referring to, with no yellow, and reduced dark coloration--black becomes faded down to sepia brown because of that. Below that is Himalayan/Californian/pointed white, where there is no yellow and dark color only shows on the cooler points, and the body color is white; and finally albino, with all the pigment removed.

Otter is an entirely different gene. This is found on the 'A' agouti gene. Agouti is the dominant choice here--which is shown by the rabbit's light belly, light eye rings, white inside the ear, triangle behind the ears on the back of the neck, and multiple bands of color on the hairshaft. The recessive choice is non-agouti, requiring two recessive 'aa' genes. These are also called self colors, as the entire rabbit is all one color (like black, chocolate, blue, or lilac). No white markings, and a single shade of color on the hairshaft (although the color may lighten as the hairshaft extends.)

Otter/tan/marten is on a third choice, which is recessive to agouti, but dominant over self non-agouti. It is called the tan allele (allele is just a fancy word for a possible choice on a given gene), and is coded a(t). Here, you get all the agouti light markings, but none of the agouti banding on the hairshaft--agouti markings but self coat. If the tan allele is accompanied with the full color C allele, you get what is called an 'otter'. The triangle behind the ears will be yellowish/orange, and there is often a very thin reddish/tan line outlining the white markings (which could be tinted tan if you also have the rufus (reddish) modifiers.

Tan a(t) accompanied by the chinchilla c(chd) or sable c(chl for chinchilla light) alleles will result in a 'marten'. Since both chinchilla and sable remove the yellow tones, a marten will have a pearl white triangle behind the ears, and all the agouti markings will be pearl white.

Thank you so much for this information I'm just trying to figure it all out, now I'm going to make it even more difficult. I'm getting a magpie female which I think is in the Harlequin family the woman told me she's a mix and gets up to 13 lb with the mix is I don't actually know yet because I haven't picked her up. But if I breed her to my broken opal Rex buck what will I get then? Or my better off getting a harlequin / magpie Buck to breed to my sable Rex.. I'm trying to get some Harlequin or magpie coloring into my genetics and then cull the ones with the non-rex fur... You wouldn't believe it but in Connecticut there's no harlequin magpie or tris Rex to be found in all of New England... And those are the colors show people don't want lol

 

[judymac]

Magpie is harlequin + chinchilla. The harlequin e(j) gene takes the agouti banding off the hairshaft, and puts it on separate patches of skin instead. Chinchilla also works on the agouti gene, removing the middle yellow band from the hairshaft. In the case of harlequin, it removes the yellow/orange patches and replaces them with pearl white. Magpies can come in any of the main dark colors (black, blue, chocolate or lilac) + the white patches.

The Rex standard does not appear to accept harlequin or magpie coloration; tricolors (broken harlequin) are acceptable in black/orange, chocolate/orange, blue/fawn and lilac/fawn provided they meet the broken pattern regulations. Broken magpies do not make tricolors, as they have no yellow coloration for the third color.

If the doe is a magpie, she is agouti (A-), you didn't say what color of magpie, so I don't know if she is black, blue, chocolate or lilac on the colored patches, so we'll skip that part for now. Magpie is chinchilla based, so she would be c(chd)-. and e(j)- for the harlequin. The broken opal buck would also be agouti (A-), black based (B-), full color (C-), dilute (dd), normal extension (E-), and dominant broken (En-).

Not knowing what their background is, we don't know anything about any recessive traits they may be carrying. There is a good chance for agouti based colors, as both have dominant agouti. The buck's full color is dominant over chinchilla. If he carries chinchilla as a recessive, there is a good chance for a least a few chinchilla based kits. Full extension is dominant over harlequin, so you may not see any harlequin in the first generation. But, if the buck is carrying a recessive fawn/orange 'ee' gene, harlequin is dominant over orange, so there is a chance. Broken is dominant over solid, so broken kits are quite likely, probably at least half the litter, unless he has a Charlie double spotting gene, in which case all of the kits will be broken.

The buck is a recessive dilute color, so you could end up with some dilute (blue or lilac) kits if mom carries that trait as well. Blue + agouti = opal, lilac + agouti = lynx.

 

[Blakie83]

Magpie is harlequin + chinchilla. The harlequin e(j) gene takes the agouti banding off the hairshaft, and puts it on separate patches of skin instead. Chinchilla also works on the agouti gene, removing the middle yellow band from the hairshaft. In the case of harlequin, it removes the yellow/orange patches and replaces them with pearl white. Magpies can come in any of the main dark colors (black, blue, chocolate or lilac) + the white patches.

The Rex standard does not appear to accept harlequin or magpie coloration; tricolors (broken harlequin) are acceptable in black/orange, chocolate/orange, blue/fawn and lilac/fawn provided they meet the broken pattern regulations. Broken magpies do not make tricolors, as they have no yellow coloration for the third color.

If the doe is a magpie, she is agouti (A-), you didn't say what color of magpie, so I don't know if she is black, blue, chocolate or lilac on the colored patches, so we'll skip that part for now. Magpie is chinchilla based, so she would be c(chd)-. and e(j)- for the harlequin. The broken opal buck would also be agouti (A-), black based (B-), full color (C-), dilute (dd), normal extension (E-), and dominant broken (En-).

Not knowing what their background is, we don't know anything about any recessive traits they may be carrying. There is a good chance for agouti based colors, as both have dominant agouti. The buck's full color is dominant over chinchilla. If he carries chinchilla as a recessive, there is a good chance for a least a few chinchilla based kits. Full extension is dominant over harlequin, so you may not see any harlequin in the first generation. But, if the buck is carrying a recessive fawn/orange 'ee' gene, harlequin is dominant over orange, so there is a chance. Broken is dominant over solid, so broken kits are quite likely, probably at least half the litter, unless he has a Charlie double spotting gene, in which case all of the kits will be broken.

The buck is a recessive dilute color, so you could end up with some dilute (blue or lilac) kits if mom carries that trait as well. Blue + agouti = opal, lilac + agouti = lynx.

I'm sorry to leave that out she's the type that's orange and black almost like a torty cat no white, the book has only thrown blacks lilac other broken colors no browns or fawns I know of yet lol..

 

[judymac]

she's the type that's orange and black almost like a torty cat no white

Ah, so she isn't a magpie. She's a standard black/orange harlequin. That makes her A-B-C-D-e(j)- If the buck has thrown lilac, he does have a brown recessive, as it requires both two recessive dilute and brown genes to make a lilac. So he would be A-Bb C-dd E-. Just for fun, I plugged in these codes into the rabbit color calculator at Rabbit Color Calculator | Genetics According to them, you have a 1 in 3 chance of chestnut agouti, 1 in 7 chance of black/orange harlequin like the doe, 1 in 10 chance of opal agouti like the buck, with smaller chances of a dilute harlequin or cinnamon agouti, and then you get into just 2 or 3 chances in 100 of those unknown recessives combining into things like orange agouti or chinchilla where there's no evidence of those colors even being there.

 

[Blakie83]

Oh boy got her which I found out she's a continental magpie mix black and orange.... What I have a better chance of reading her to a giant chinchilla which is all silver? I'm just trying to find out what direction to go in.... Or what kind of buck should I be looking for besides another magpie or harlequin in her size type? By the way I really appreciate your help
.

 

[Blakie83]

There's a harlequin back in her genetics whilst mixed with Continental and it kept throwing magpies the hybrids.... So I just need a direction so far I should try reading her too I have a giant chinchilla which is around her way she's 5 months and 11 lbs and still growing and I have a standard Rex buck who is around 10 months program which I prefer to above lol

 

[judymac]

If magpie is your goal, then the chinchilla might be a good choice, as it takes harlequin + chinchilla to = magpie. The color calculator suggests that this cross may have a 1 in 3 chance of chestnut agouti, 1 in 7 chance of chinchilla like the dad, 1 in 7 chance of orange harlequin like the mom, 1 in 15 chance of a magpie, and then a smattering of all sorts of things due to recessive genes we may know nothing about.

 

[Blakie83]

If magpie is your goal, then the chinchilla might be a good choice, as it takes harlequin + chinchilla to = magpie. The color calculator suggests that this cross may have a 1 in 3 chance of chestnut agouti, 1 in 7 chance of chinchilla like the dad, 1 in 7 chance of orange harlequin like the mom, 1 in 15 chance of a magpie, and then a smattering of all sorts of things due to recessive genes we may know nothing about.

You have been greatly helpful
.... Thank you so much now I know what direction to go to..... She is a beautiful doe... 4 months weighs 13 lb the owner said the meat to Bone ratio is excellent if you're using them for meat.... I was planning on sticking with just the Rex breed... But I think I found the new choice although my Rex may be pregnant although 10 days and she made a mess and pulled one little hair or two of fur.... Using that always means false pregnancy but in the past I've had them Kindle doing the same thing... Once again thank you so much

 

[Blakie83]

If magpie is your goal, then the chinchilla might be a good choice, as it takes harlequin + chinchilla to = magpie. The color calculator suggests that this cross may have a 1 in 3 chance of chestnut agouti, 1 in 7 chance of chinchilla like the dad, 1 in 7 chance of orange harlequin like the mom, 1 in 15 chance of a magpie, and then a smattering of all sorts of things due to recessive genes we may know nothing about.

Now I can get my hands on a Continental Giant buck that has two colors it's striped Brown and has white ears it's not tricolored but he said I would get good colors with the female I got ... What do you suggest the best color would be breeding her with another tricolor or magpie if that's what I'm going after? Thank you so much again

 

[judymac]

Continental Giant buck that has two colors it's striped Brown and has white ears

Okay. Continental Giant is a breed related to the Flemish Giant, that is a British breed. There, they come in colors similar to the Flemish Giant, which does include chinchilla color. When you say 'striped brown', could you send a photo or a description of how it is striped? Striping isn't normal in classic Continental Giants, they are mostly steel, chinchilla, agouti, sandy, black or white.

Now the white-ear gene is a rather new phenomenon in the rabbit world. I've read some about it, but I don't have a clear understanding of the genetics. One breeder I read about had been working originally with the extreme Vienna-marked genetics, so I don't know if white-ear (abbreviated WE) is related to Vienna or not.

I understand that one copy of WE will give the classic Vienna markings, white toes, white mark on head, sometimes a white collar, and the white ears. Two copies of WE (some called it double white ear) gives a Charlie-looking white rabbit with a little spot of color on the hindquarters. It is not recommended to mix white-ear with magpie if you want traditional magpie or tricolor patterning, as the white ear will add white markings where it doesn't normally belong. However, that said, there is a wide following for the white-ear pattern, and many love it. White ear is not showable, but then in most breeds harlequin isn't showable either, and we are talking about crossing to another breed anyway. So, the real question is, what do YOU want your babies to look like?

 

[Blakie83]

Okay. Continental Giant is a breed related to the Flemish Giant, that is a British breed. There, they come in colors similar to the Flemish Giant, which does include chinchilla color. When you say 'striped brown', could you send a photo or a description of how it is striped? Striping isn't normal in classic Continental Giants, they are mostly steel, chinchilla, agouti, sandy, black or white.

Now the white-ear gene is a rather new phenomenon in the rabbit world. I've read some about it, but I don't have a clear understanding of the genetics. One breeder I read about had been working originally with the extreme Vienna-marked genetics, so I don't know if white-ear (abbreviated WE) is related to Vienna or not.

I understand that one copy of WE will give the classic Vienna markings, white toes, white mark on head, sometimes a white collar, and the white ears. Two copies of WE (some called it double white ear) gives a Charlie-looking white rabbit with a little spot of color on the hindquarters. It is not recommended to mix white-ear with magpie if you want traditional magpie or tricolor patterning, as the white ear will add white markings where it doesn't normally belong. However, that said, there is a wide following for the white-ear pattern, and many love it. White ear is not showable, but then in most breeds harlequin isn't showable either, and we are talking about crossing to another breed anyway. So, the real question is, what do YOU want your babies to look like?

The picture of the female I have is up higher on the thread she's in the box when I bought her for some reason I've been seeing a lot of Continental Giants that color I don't know where it's mixed with us or what

 

[judymac]

There's a harlequin back in her genetics whilst mixed with Continental and it kept throwing magpies the hybrids

Ah, explains the stripes. She appears to be a harlequin. The harlequin gene plus the chinchilla gene is how you get magpies.