What colors am I getting? *New Pictures*

[ZRabbits]

Not saying that surprises don't happen, just saying they are not random, and the whole color thing is not a futile shot in the dark. Color rules are rules, and there are some things that just don't happen. There are scientific mysteries, but things just don't defy the laws of physics.

Surprises happen, but the whole litter should not be a mystery, and for the most part, is very predictable if people stay within the color rules. I think breeders who have the philosophy that colors are a shot in the dark should not mix and match colors they don't understand. I've seen some things on peds and wondered why in the world that person mixed those colors together, because it just creates genetic mayhem.

For instance, I have a color listed on my holland ped as an Opal from two torts. That is NOT genetically possible. I know this lady had been breeding for some time, at least 15 years, but clearly she does not understand color rules, or she would know that you cannot get an agouti from two selfs, so either she has her colors wrong, or back on the ped, she had her colors wrong.

Not everyone who has been breeding for a long time understands the color genetics of the rabbits they breed.

Know all about color rules, and not saying that you don't know what to expect by following these color rules. But it's not an EXACT science. That's all I'm saying. Things pop up all the time. Heck stray white hairs in black will be a DQ even though you been following the color rules. Or white toe nails as well.

It's a good rule to follow for show colors, but show people who know the color rules also admit how hard it is to get the colors just right. If it was EXACT, it wouldn't be a challenge. And every color in the rainbow would be showing in every breed.

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

Not saying that surprises don't happen, just saying they are not random, and the whole color thing is not a futile shot in the dark. Color rules are rules, and there are some things that just don't happen. There are scientific mysteries, but things just don't defy the laws of physics.

Surprises happen, but the whole litter should not be a mystery, and for the most part, is very predictable if people stay within the color rules. I think breeders who have the philosophy that colors are a shot in the dark should not mix and match colors they don't understand. I've seen some things on peds and wondered why in the world that person mixed those colors together, because it just creates genetic mayhem.

For instance, I have a color listed on my holland ped as an Opal from two torts. That is NOT genetically possible. I know this lady had been breeding for some time, at least 15 years, but clearly she does not understand color rules, or she would know that you cannot get an agouti from two selfs, so either she has her colors wrong, or back on the ped, she had her colors wrong.

Not everyone who has been breeding for a long time understands the color genetics of the rabbits they breed.

Know all about color rules, and not saying that you don't know what to expect by following these color rules. But it's not an EXACT science. That's all I'm saying. Things pop up all the time. Heck stray white hairs in black will be a DQ even though you been following the color rules. Or white toe nails as well.

It's a good rule to follow for show colors, but show people who know the color rules also admit how hard it is to get the colors just right. If it was EXACT, it wouldn't be a challenge. And every color in the rainbow would be showing in every breed.

Karen

I think there is confusion with genotype and phenotype. The science is exact, the colors do what science says they should do, the application is not exact. The gene formula for making colors is exact. If not, you could never get predictable colors. Many breeders successfully breed certain colors with predictable results all of the time. And they perfect these colors.

You are talking about getting phenotype right for colors, what we see and what we think is perfect. Putting the right genes together makes that color, whether or not we think it is the best representation. Some colors are hard to get what we call perfect, but they are still the predictable colors. Castor is a hard color to get right. What you see may not always be the best representation, due to hidden genes, that also follow rules. If you knew those hidden genes, you could get what you want all of the time.

Pop ups do not mean that the science is not exact. The science does allow for pop ups, for solving for the x factor. But self to self will never get agouti. You can't get much more exact than that. With agouti, they can hide every possible gene, so be the scientist and find out what you have.

The fact that every color does not show in every breed shows just how exact it is. Unless someone mixed things up, I will never have a steel in a Rex. Nor a sable martin. Or a VM or BEW. They do not happen spontaneously. Those genes must be interjected into the lines.

White hairs and two nails are predictable as well, watching pedigrees and following a pattern. With enough information. They just don't come from no where. They tend to come from VM animals, BEW and brokens in the ped. Sometimes they are not genetic and are caused by the hair turning white from a scratch. You need to know your animals far enough back.

I don't have any problems predicting colors, or creating them. "Where did that comes from" situations only serve to complete the picture, not derail it.

__________ Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:42 pm __________

The main challenge is breeding all of the crap out of the lines to get what you want. My goal is to eliminate REW from my herd. I have a buck that has never produced it, and every doe will be test bred in rotation until I am satisfied that she does not carry it.<br /><br />__________ Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:58 pm __________<br /><br />I'm sorry, I'm going to let it rest. We have not had the same experiences obviously.

 

[ZRabbits]

The fact that every color does not show in every breed shows just how exact it is. Unless someone mixed things up, I will never have a steel in a Rex. Nor a sable martin. Or a VM or BEW. They do not happen spontaneously. Those genes must be interjected into the lines.

No it shows how inconsistent it can be based on many variables. Again guidelines or if you want recommendations have been set. There is no exact science when it comes to genetics.

I guess I realize that you can not full Mother Nature. And your statement above actually agrees with what I am trying to say.

And your quote on "science allows pop ups" just shows it's not exact. Not trying to argue, just telling you the way it is. And telling someone that if you mix this set of ABCDE to this set of ABCDE you will exactly this. It's not probable. It's possible but not probable. Probable makes it EXACT. And even that has weak points. Percentages may be in your favor, but those unknown percentages determines what you will get as the result.

I understand from a breeder's point who shows, you want all your litters to be exact. It's not happening. Even with agouti and self. You never know what's going to pop up. I happen to think that's the most exciting part of it. Whether it be good or bad. We are not dealing with an element chart. Now that's exact.

I'll let it rest too. I know my way of thinking will not make me frustrated. I'll enjoy the surprise at the bottom of the box. And be thankful for it.

Karen

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Science does not allow for 'popups' What is being allowed for is the fact the person who breeds two rabbits does not have a complete picture of their rabbits' genotype and quite possibly their phenotype as well! After several breedings one can "fill in the blanks" It is always exact and will always be no matter the level of knowledge of the person breeding. If you can fill in the blanks then you will know what possibilities exist! Show breeders simply know what combos make what and breed accordingly.

For example I have a Broken Black Otter doe... I KNOW she carries dilute and chocolate, just from the fact her mom is a self lilac.. this also tells me my doe carries self.. SOO I also know to ignore the castor on the sire's side, because castor can not be hidden in Otter or self.(However I know that castor carried a self gene from her mother and contributed it to my does father while the sire of the doe's father gave an otter gene.)

So now I want to breed her....So if I breed her to a self Lilac buck I will have the "possibility" of 16 different colour/pattern/combos!! So they would be self/otter/broken in black/chocolate/blue and lilac. (broken could be either self or otter). This is exact there will be no surprises.. The only unknown is the number of kits and what pairings actually occur of the gene combos.

 

[skysthelimit]

That's what I consider a "popup", an incomplete part of the equation, that can sometimes only be found by test breeding. It pops up because the person breeding does not know enough to know all of the genotype.

I asked for an otter or castor MR buck. Someone offered me a black buck, and told me that his parents are both otters. Well if they knew anything about genetics, they would not have offered him, in this case it does not matter what is parents are, if he is a self, he cannot carry the otter gene, so that would not work for me. Plain and simple.

 

[faiththequeen]

I'm still unsure about these two. Here are some birth to 15 day photos.

This is my runt.

And this is my other one. I thought maybe sable point, but now I'm now so sure..

What do you think??

 

[Miss M]

I think they're adorable!! :razz:

Sorry, that doesn't help, though...

 

[faiththequeen]

I think they're adorable!! :razz:

Sorry, that doesn't help, though...

LOL! Thanks!!

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

The first is a Siamese sable, the second is a frosty..that is if my monitor is correctly showing that the second kit has dark eyes?

 

[ollitos]

I think they're adorable!! :razz:

Sorry, that doesn't help, though...

I am chiming in to say... Yah! Me too! lol

 

[faiththequeen]

The first is a Siamese sable, the second is a frosty..that is if my monitor is correctly showing that the second kit has dark eyes?

I thought Siamese Sable too. But I thought she'd have more brownish coloring by now and she really doesn't have any. But I've never had a siamese sable before, so I have no idea.

And, yes, the frosty kit seems to have dark eyes. Can you get a frosty without it being in the pedigree? I mean, I guess it could be back there somewhere. That would be sweet if he's a frosted something!

Conclusion: I'm thinking Siamese Smoke Pearl and I'm hoping that little white one turns into a sable point, because anything else she could be isn't showable

 

[MamaMandy]

I've had a lot of Siamese Sable babies before...they do look gray for quite some time. I was always hopeful they'd be smokes, but they'd end up getting brown eventually. A smoke baby will look more bluish than your kit. The light colored one could go either way...sable points go through a weird stage. Mine always looked very smutty and then got lighter. Yours is already very light...almost looks white. I'm kind of leaning toward it being a frosty, but let's hope it's a Sable Point that is just going through the stages differently than mine ever did! LOL

 

[skysthelimit]

Now that you seem them, the next time it won't be as much as a surprise because you will recognize the colors and anticipate the changes.
A few more weeks and my first batch of sable will be born.