What colors am I getting? *New Pictures*

[faiththequeen]

Okay, just wondering if all of you dear color genetic geniuses have any guesses on colors of my AFL kits.

Mom is Broken Sable Grandparents- Sable Point and REW Great Grandparents- Broken Tort, Sable Point, REW, and Siamese Smoke Pearl GG Grandparents- Sable Points, Torts, REW's, and Smoke Pearl

Dad is Orange Grandparents- Broken Chin and Broken Black Great Grandparents- Broken Chestnut and Chestnut GG GrandParents- Chinchillas, Blacks, and Orange

5 DAY OLD KITS
#1-looks broken black and I'm pretty sure it's staying that way
#2-born solid pink and is now turning white
#3-looks broken blue, but I know that's not it
#4-looks blue, but I know that's not it

Guess away!

Here they are yesterday

 

[akane]

Blues that aren't quite blue are often sables which can hide with the chin gene in their background. Solid pink to white is rew, bew (unlikely in this case), or himi (the points come later and himi is often bred to chins and sable lines so most likely).

 

[curlysue]

I think you have a black broken and a sable solid and a sable broken and a REW.

 

[ZRabbits]

What sweet babies! Totally a "newbie" regarding coloring, but I'll take a shot, lol.

I see two brokens and hoping the "pinkie" is the REW you want. I'll wait until they really furred up because you will get a better idea what the solid will be. Hope you continue an update on their progress with pics.

Karen

 

[faiththequeen]

Okay, Today is day 9. Now it looks like my broken black might be turning broken sable?? Or possibly broken chestnut, if that's possible. The two "blues" (broken and self) still look pretty blue. I'm thinking possibly chin? And I think my white one might get some points. Behind his ears are a little darker.

 

[skysthelimit]

The broken blacks look like they have white in their ears. They look agouti marked.

If the blue has a white belly, then it is agouti marked as well.

These are chins

Chestnuts at day ten. The broken blacks in the box are broken otters.

<br /><br />__________ Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:47 pm __________<br /><br />The white one looks sooty to me, on the edge of the ears and near it's side/tail. I don't think it's a REW.

 

[faiththequeen]

I don't think he's a REW anymore either, since the backs of his ears are getting slightly dark. Maybe a sable point? Or is a smoke pearl possible?

Here is a picture of all of them. I know you can't really see. I'll be uploading photos later. But they're still not the greatest. Those little popples just pop everywhere! LOL!


Believe it or not, that first one USED to look like a broken black! LOL! It's back still kind of does, but it's face has totally changed.

 

[skysthelimit]

That definitely looks agouti marked, looks like a chestnut. That's how I tell my chestnuts from otters. Both start out looking like broken blacks. Soon the chestnuts get some ticking throughout the colored parts, and the otters stay black.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I think you have a broken chestnut and a broken opal. The other is a mystery to me- you can see in the original pic that the ears have color, and its hindquarters and sides look splotchy, so I'm thinking some type of shaded.

 

[faiththequeen]

Thanks! That's what I think to. The little solid blue one still has me puzzled. He's solid blue all over! But there's no blue in their background?? hmmmm... And the white one could possibly be smoke pearl? MSD, you think the one that looks like a light colored broken chin could be broken opal? They don't have any of that in their background either, but who knows! I'm am HORRIBLE at genetics.

 

[Bad Habit]

Smoke pearl is a dilute, and dilute is recessive. it could be passed down several generations before being expressed.

I had a smoke pearl and a siamese sable in the same litter - the smoke pearl was silvery/light grey, whereas the siamese sable was dark grey.

You probably have some type of point, a siamese sable, a broken chestnut and a broken opal(dilute of chestnut)

6 days old - smoke pearl

6 days old - siamese sable

16 days old

 

[MamaSheepdog]

And the white one could possibly be smoke pearl?

I have no idea on that... the only shadeds I have are my JWs- which are smoke pearl and Siamese sable, but I just bought them and haven't bred them, so have no idea what kits look like.

MSD, you think the one that looks like a light colored broken chin could be broken opal?

That is the coloring of my opal Rex.

I'm am HORRIBLE at genetics.

Me too. Join the crowd!

 

[skysthelimit]

The opals look just like broken blues until the chestnut color comes in.
I'd keep an eye on that blue one. Gonna be interesting.

 

[MamaMandy]

I don't think the white could be a smoke pearl. I'd say more likely to be sable point...they can look funky for awhile, but they end up gorgeous! Keep us posted on them!

 

[akane]

I've had a 10 generation pedigree with no chocolates on it and gotten chocolates. You never know with recessives.

 

[ZRabbits]

Know matter how much I've poured into research on bunny color genetics, and have read all the posts here explaining what should happen, it's still a shot in the dark. Mother Nature does what she wants. But that's the excitement factor. Peering into nest boxes to see what you get, and watching the kits develop into mature rabbits. Then you know what color they will be. There is no exact science.

Karen

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Genetics are exactly that.. exact! Recessives will always be recessive and dominants will always be dominant! What is happening is that when you breed two rabbits with a vastly mixed pedigree then the different possible combinations becomes a lot higher and hence the "odds" of certain colours changes.There are no curve balls just unknown recessives that were already present.This is the reason most breeders don't like willy-nilly colour mixing..it lessens the chance of getting desired colours and increases the odds of getting unwanted colours or unshowable colours. It really bites to get a great typed rabbit that is a tort otter for example! So if you know your rabbits complete genetic make-up then there will be no surprises,as every outcome can be known.Just because one doesn't know the background/genotype of a rabbit doesn't mean Mother Nature is doing anything different.
Lets put it this way there are only 2 colours.. black and brown; there are however, in varying degrees of dominant and recessive, "Modifiers" that mess with things such as ring colour, placement of ring colour ,etc.etc.These modifiers alway work the same way no matter what! If there is a dominant gene then that is what will show,with the recessive being hidden in the rabbits genotype.

 

[skysthelimit]

Genetics are exactly that.. exact! Recessives will always be recessive and dominants will always be dominant! What is happening is that when you breed two rabbits with a vastly mixed pedigree then the different possible combinations becomes a lot higher and hence the "odds" of certain colours changes.There are no curve balls just unknown recessives that were already present.This is the reason most breeders don't like willy-nilly colour mixing..it lessens the chance of getting desired colours and increases the odds of getting unwanted colours or unshowable colours. It really bites to get a great typed rabbit that is a tort otter for example! So if you know your rabbits complete genetic make-up then there will be no surprises,as every outcome can be known.Just because one doesn't know the background/genotype of a rabbit doesn't mean Mother Nature is doing anything different.
Lets put it this way there are only 2 colours.. black and brown; there are however, in varying degrees of dominant and recessive, "Modifiers" that mess with things such as ring colour, placement of ring colour ,etc.etc.These modifiers alway work the same way no matter what! If there is a dominant gene then that is what will show,with the recessive being hidden in the rabbits genotype.

One of the main reasons I don't like breeding REWs, because without seeing their phenotype, I can't narrow down the genotype. My herd has been bred for so long with the same breeder, that many of the recessives are already known, the benefit of inbreeding. I get very few true surprises, there is very little of the odd color mixing I've seen on some pedigrees. I've got more than ten generations of peds on these guys. The only "surprises" are the distribution of the colors and the genders.<br /><br />__________ Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:03 pm __________<br /><br />I will add that adding my seals and cals to the program will add colors that I have never seen before, and don't fully understand yet, but it will not be a roll of the dice, the colors are very predictable to someone who has raised this variety before.

 

[ZRabbits]

Genetics are exactly that.. exact! Recessives will always be recessive and dominants will always be dominant! What is happening is that when you breed two rabbits with a vastly mixed pedigree then the different possible combinations becomes a lot higher and hence the "odds" of certain colours changes.There are no curve balls just unknown recessives that were already present.This is the reason most breeders don't like willy-nilly colour mixing..it lessens the chance of getting desired colours and increases the odds of getting unwanted colours or unshowable colours. It really bites to get a great typed rabbit that is a tort otter for example! So if you know your rabbits complete genetic make-up then there will be no surprises,as every outcome can be known.Just because one doesn't know the background/genotype of a rabbit doesn't mean Mother Nature is doing anything different.
Lets put it this way there are only 2 colours.. black and brown; there are however, in varying degrees of dominant and recessive, "Modifiers" that mess with things such as ring colour, placement of ring colour ,etc.etc.These modifiers alway work the same way no matter what! If there is a dominant gene then that is what will show,with the recessive being hidden in the rabbits genotype.

Sorry if I stepped on some toes with the "Mother Nature" comment, but still think "curve balls" do exist no matter how careful you breed for color. You stated "unknown" recessives which could be a "curve ball". Or "modifiers" also play their part. Then I guess you need to know all the generations of a rabbit from the very beginning of your line to get exact. What about people who breed carefully but find something that pops up that was 10 generations ago? Life is funny that way. It happens. Just my opinion. I know I'm a newbie regarding coloring, but there are some who have been doing it for years and will tell you and have told me, it takes a LONG time to be exact. And no matter how careful you are, things pop up in your nest box. That's what makes it exciting.

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

Not saying that surprises don't happen, just saying they are not random, and the whole color thing is not a futile shot in the dark. Color rules are rules, and there are some things that just don't happen. There are scientific mysteries, but things just don't defy the laws of physics.

Surprises happen, but the whole litter should not be a mystery, and for the most part, is very predictable if people stay within the color rules. I think breeders who have the philosophy that colors are a shot in the dark should not mix and match colors they don't understand. I've seen some things on peds and wondered why in the world that person mixed those colors together, because it just creates genetic mayhem.

For instance, I have a color listed on my holland ped as an Opal from two torts. That is NOT genetically possible. I know this lady had been breeding for some time, at least 15 years, but clearly she does not understand color rules, or she would know that you cannot get an agouti from two selfs, so either she has her colors wrong, or back on the ped, she had her colors wrong.

Not everyone who has been breeding for a long time understands the color genetics of the rabbits they breed.