What color is this Holland doe?

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smugpeach

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I am relatively new at this and am having trouble color typing this female Holland lop and would appreciate your thoughts. Breeder lists her as a Lilac Magpie but she appears to have some cream in her coat. Also, would a magpie be considered a harlequinized Chinchilla or is it a Tort base? I tried googling rabbit color calculators but there doesn't seem to be an option to select for Magpie. Thank you in advance!

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I am relatively new at this and am having trouble color typing this female Holland lop and would appreciate your thoughts. Breeder lists her as a Lilac Magpie but she appears to have some cream in her coat. Also, would a magpie be considered a harlequinized Chinchilla or is it a Tort base? I tried googling rabbit color calculators but there doesn't seem to be an option to select for Magpie. Thank you in advance!

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I'm as stuck as you. It's so hard learning what color is what. I love Holland lops they're so cute and so popular!
 
Are blue eyes normal in Magpie? If not then they have VM/BEW in them (or the other color than can make blue eyes, I think it's Ermine?)
 
I'm as stuck as you. It's so hard learning what color is what. I love Holland lops they're so cute and so popular!
Agreed! And sometimes the differences between shades are so nuanced that it's easy to mistake/mislabel colors on pedigrees etc...you really need an experienced breeder/handler to be sure. I've lurked on some of the other threads in this forum and I'm often amazed by the little tells/markers that I would never dream of looking at but that people have learned to spot from experience.
 
I am relatively new at this and am having trouble color typing this female Holland lop and would appreciate your thoughts. Breeder lists her as a Lilac Magpie but she appears to have some cream in her coat. Also, would a magpie be considered a harlequinized Chinchilla or is it a Tort base? I tried googling rabbit color calculators but there doesn't seem to be an option to select for Magpie. Thank you in advance!

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I would have called her a dilute magpie except for that cream patch in front of her left eye, and I think I see cream on her ears as well? Her blue eyes could be from a chinchilla allele (yes, a magpie is a chinchilla harlequin - the chinchilla allele <c(chd)> reduces/prevents expression of yellow pigments; nothing to do with tort). But those eyes are so blue they make me think of vienna; chinchilla eyes are usually more bluish-gray.

In fact, if she is a VM (vienna marked, meaning she has one copy of the partially dominant vienna gene <v>), that would explain the very blue eyes and could also cause fairly extensive white spots. If she is a lilac harlequin, her orange parts would be quite diluted, so they'd look cream. And the white parts of her that make her look like a magpie, could be due not to chinchilla, but instead be a result of the vienna gene. Our VM Polish tend to be lightly-marked - snips of white on their foreheads and feet - but some VMs are so heavily-marked as to look almost like a poorly marked Dutch.

Imagine a lilac/cream harlequin with a white overlay like this VM Netherland Dwarf has:
1713060654904.jpeg

So my guess would be a vienna-marked lilac harlequin (not magpie): <A_bbC_ddE_Vv>.
 
Thank you for such a thorough explanation! I had this feeling that maybe she was actually a really faint harlequin but I didn't realize the Vienna markings could extend throughout the body, not just the face. And I appreciate you typing out the gene sequence. 🫰

At what point would the VM markings be considered "extreme"? Is there a set metric, like over 30% or maybe 50%?
 
Thank you for such a thorough explanation! I had this feeling that maybe she was actually a really faint harlequin but I didn't realize the Vienna markings could extend throughout the body, not just the face. And I appreciate you typing out the gene sequence. 🫰

At what point would the VM markings be considered "extreme"? Is there a set metric, like over 30% or maybe 50%?
VMs are not a recognized variety in any U.S. breed, so as far as I know there's not really a set proportion of white vs color on a VM to define "extreme," like there is on a broken colored rabbit. In brokens, the two extremes are known as charlie (something less than 10% color) or booted (mostly colored), but I have never heard of any analagous terms for VMs.

The term "extreme" is being used to describe rabbits with two copies of the partially dominant white ear gene <WE>.

I find it useful to discriminate heavily-marked VMs from lightly-marked VMs because in our Polish, we have the broken gene lurking in our BEWs. A heavily-marked VM is very hard to distinguish from a broken (a rabbit can be either or both), while a lightly-marked VM can usually be differentiated from brokens. The tendency to produce heavy or light VM markings does seem to be heritable, so, when we choose brood stock, we prefer the lightly-marked VMs so we know what we're dealing with.

Note on the VM lilac harlequin call - it's possible that the cream on her face is staining, in which case she could still be a VM magpie. :unsure: Do you have her pedigree?
 
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The term "extreme" is being used to describe rabbits with two copies of the partially dominant white ear gene <WE>.

I find it useful to discriminate heavily-marked VMs from lightly-marked VMs because in our Polish, we have the broken gene lurking in our BEWs. A heavily-marked VM is very hard to distinguish from a broken (a rabbit can be either or both), while a lightly-marked VM can usually be differentiated from brokens. The tendency to produce heavy or light VM markings does seem to be heritable, so, when we choose brood stock, we prefer the lightly-marked VMs so we know what we're dealing with.

Note on the VM lilac harlequin call - it's possible that the cream on her face is staining, in which case she could still be a VM magpie. :unsure: Do you have her pedigree?
Does the <WE> gene also affect hearing in rabbits? I've heard of other species in which a similar gene causes deafness in the affected animal.

Per her pedigree,
Sire: Blue Harlequin VM, Dam: Broken Sable Point
Sire's parents were Broken Chocolate VM and BEW
Dam's parents were Broken Sable Point and Blue/Fawn Harlequin VM
 
Here's my question. Are you looking for a pet or for a breeding animal and if the latter... what is your purpose?

a doe with this mix of colours in her background will make it hard to get good colours for a few generations. So make wise decisions.

sable messes with colours... and I think, though by no means an expert, think that's what is leading to the shading in her coat.

I'm thinking she's very much vienna marked, as a harlequin. Not a tricolour, and the cream rules out the magpie. Sometimes the kits a doe gives you help you determine what's behind them too.
 
I’ve listed some breeding pairs below I want to do. Anyone know what colors this could produce? Any help is greatly appreciated. I don’t know about genetics or all the letters very well.

Chocolate magpie-chocolate harlequin

Chocolate magpie-black tri

Chocolate magpie-black tort

Sable point frosty-chocolate harlequin

Sable point frosty- sable point

Sable point frosty-orange

Chocolate magpie-sable point

Chocolate magpie-orange



Sorry I know this is a lot but again any help is greatly appreciated!
 
I’ve listed some breeding pairs below I want to do. Anyone know what colors this could produce?

Chocolate magpie-chocolate harlequin
Chocolate magpie-black tri
Chocolate magpie-black tort

Sable point frosty- black tri
Sable point frosty-Black tort
Sable point frosty-chocolate harlequin

Black otter-chocolate harlequin
Black otter-black tort

Sorry I know this is a lot but any help is appreciated!
Most of these pairings will depend heavily on what the individuals carry behind their dominant alleles.

Any of the pairings could produce BEWs or REWs if both parents carry vienna or REW.

Chocolate magpie x chocolate harlequin will probably make more chocolate harlequins, but they may also make chocolate magpies if the harlie carries a chinchilla allele. What you can be sure of though is that any chocolate x chocolate will only give you more chocolates (and/or lilacs if both parents carry dilute), but it will yield more showable varieties than mot of the other pairings on your list (depending on which breed you're working with).

A black tricolor is a broken harlequin, so about half of his litter will probably be brokens. A tri x chocolate magpie cross will likely produce black harlequins and tris (and possibly chocolate harlequins and tris, if the tri carries chocolate). But you might also get broken magpies if the tri carries chinchilla, and since magpie is already black and white, you won't necessarily know for sure which are the brokens.

Crossing harlequin or magpie (which is a chinchilla harlequin) with any color tort, which is a non-extension black, you will eventually end up with torted harlequins which are not generally desireable. You might see any number of other colors - see below about sable point (another non-extension color) x tri.

Sable point frosty- black tri
Sable point frosty-Black tort
Sable point frosty-chocolate harlequin
Sable point is a self non-extension sable, and black tri is a broken harlequin (which are usually but not always agouti-based). Probably about half of the kits will be broken colored. Otherwise this is a jumble and what you see will entirely depend on what the rabbits carry at their second loci. You'll probably get chestnut agouti, and/or chinchilla if the tri carries chin, and/or sable agouti if the tri happens to carry sable, himi or REW, and/or himalayan if they both carry himi, or if one carries himi and one carries REW. You might see blue-, chocolate- or lilac-based colors if both parents carry dilute and/or chocolate. You might get solid sables if the tri carries self, or otters if the tri carries tan. You may get normal or torted harlequins, and you might see self blacks. There are a ton of possibilities that all hinge on what the rabbits carry; on the fact that harlequin is partially dominant and can be partially or fully expressed, or not at all; and sable is also partially dominant and can mess things up for a long time.

Sable point (non-extension sable) and tort (non-extension self black) are both selfs and non-extension colors, so you'll get all selfs and non-extension colors. That'll be more or less limited to sable points and torts, possibly sallanders if the tort carries chinchilla. This is an okay color cross for many breeds.

Sable point x chocolate harlequin will give you roughly the same range of possibilities, including undesirable torted harlequins, as the cross with the tri, minus the brokens.

Black otter-chocolate harlequin
Black otter-black tort
Otter x harlequin might give you chestnuts or other agoutis; it may also give you harlequinized agoutis or torted harlequins, which are not desirable for those interested in showing. These would be black-based but you could also see blue-, chocolate- or lilac-based colors if the black otter carries chocolate, and/or both parents carry dilute. So, this is another cross that most breeders see as undesirable.

Otter x tort will likely give you more otters since otter is dominant over self, but also probably eventually foxes (torted otters), yet another undesirable result.
 
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to me she looks like a sable magpie with vienna gene. I had one once her patches make me think of that doe. Breed her to something that carries tort (not tort, but carries it) see what happens with her offspring. That will tell you a lot more about her.
 
I’ve listed some breeding pairs below I want to do. Anyone know what colors this could produce? Any help is greatly appreciated. I don’t know about genetics or all the letters very well.

Chocolate magpie-chocolate harlequin

Chocolate magpie-black tri

Chocolate magpie-black tort

Sable point frosty-chocolate harlequin

Sable point frosty- sable point

Sable point frosty-orange

Chocolate magpie-sable point

Chocolate magpie-orange



Sorry I know this is a lot but again any help is greatly appreciated!
oh please... DO NOT throw tort/shaded in your magpie or tricolour lines. Avoid as much as you can please. keep your shaded to your shaded and out of your other colours. :)
 

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