what are these "Ticked" rabbits from self and otter parents?

[Curiouslagomorph]

So my aunt has bred her black otter to a Black self dutch. In the litter their is the usual black, blue and black otter.
But then theirs these two mystery buns.

My first thought was agouti. But that's impossible as the parents are black otter and black self.

So I thought of sable, tort or even steel.
But they look ticked. Steel doesn't show on otter does it?
Looking at these "gold tipped" babies what could they possibly be?

Mum is black otter Lionhead cross, dad is black dutch. Babies below.


What are these "ticked" bunnies for a Black otter and black self dutch?

 

[ladysown]

they look agouti to me.... the one is very dark.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

they look agouti to me.... the one is very dark.

That must mean one of the parents is not sekf/otter but actually super steel.

I couldn't wrap my head round it, but it makes sense now.
I'll tell my aunt.

 

[Alaska Satin]

That must mean one of the parents is not sekf/otter but actually super steel.

I couldn't wrap my head round it, but it makes sense now.
I'll tell my aunt.

One kit is a steel (dark inside ears), and the other appears to be a chestnut (light inner ears) although its surface color is a little unusual. This is actually quite a mystery, given the colors of the parents.

A chestnut is an agouti with normal extension <E>. A steel is a rabbit with the agouti gene as well as a steel gene <Es>, which in another situation could explain getting both the chestnut and the steel in the same litter.
Chestnut = <A_B_C_D_E_>
Steel = <A_B_C_D_Es_>

A supersteel passing as a black wouldn't be too surprising, since steel (silver-tipped) is an accepted variety in Dutch. If your Dutch is a supersteel, it is <A_B_C_D_EsEs>, and your otter is <at_B_C_D_E>

So... it doesn't make sense to get both a chestnut and a steel from these two parents. If the Dutch is a supersteel <EsEs> every one of its kits would inherit the gene. In other words, you could not get a chestnut - all the agouti kits would also have a steel gene, making them steels.

Given its slightly atypical body coloration (which could just be a phase in the agouti color development, they do go through some significant changes), I was debating about the possibility of the "chestnut" being a steeled otter, but those generally look a lot more like poorly marked otters, without obvious ticking except on the chest area:

Steeled otter photo from Coat Color Photo Matrix

Unless the Dutch is actually a steeled otter itself... given its markings, you would not be able to see ticking on its belly or around its mouth. But if it was a steeled otter, you'd expect to have gotten at least one otter when you crossed it with an otter.

Also, looking at the kits, I'd be inclined to call the "Dutch" a heavily marked Vienna instead.

@judymac, do you have any ideas???

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

One kit is a steel (dark inside ears), and the other appears to be a chestnut (light inner ears) although its surface color is a little unusual. This is actually quite a mystery, given the colors of the parents.

A chestnut is an agouti with normal extension <E>. A steel is a rabbit with the agouti gene as well as a steel gene <Es>, which in another situation could explain getting both the chestnut and the steel in the same litter.
Chestnut = <A_B_C_D_E_>
Steel = <A_B_C_D_Es_>

A supersteel passing as a black wouldn't be too surprising, since steel (silver-tipped) is an accepted variety in Dutch. If your Dutch is a supersteel, it is <A_B_C_D_EsEs>, and your otter is <at_B_C_D_E>

So... it doesn't make sense to get both a chestnut and a steel from these two parents. If the Dutch is a supersteel <EsEs> every one of its kits would inherit the gene. In other words, you could not get a chestnut - all the agouti kits would also have a steel gene, making them steels.

Given its slightly atypical body coloration (which could just be a phase in the agouti color development, they do go through some significant changes), I was debating about the possibility of the "chestnut" being a steeled otter, but those generally look a lot more like poorly marked otters, without obvious ticking except on the chest area:
View attachment 35302 View attachment 35301
Steeled otter photo from Coat Color Photo Matrix

Unless the Dutch is actually a steeled otter itself... given its markings, you would not be able to see ticking on its belly or around its mouth. But if it was a steeled otter, you'd expect to have gotten at least one otter when you crossed it with an otter.

Also, looking at the kits, I'd be inclined to call the "Dutch" a heavily marked Vienna instead.

@judymac, do you have any ideas???

Vienna is explained away easily as a lot of Dutch having it in their lines.

their is one Black otter kit.

the blacks and blue and otter baby could be steel but hiding it.

but like you said, what's up with that Agouti looking kit.

the mums belly is white, so the otter mum isn't the steel.
it has to be the dad.

but I can't fathom that Agouti kit at all., I'm pretty sure they are still getting their full coat in (it's why body not fully furred but head is). Must of been a younger kit.

 

[Alaska Satin]

their is one Black otter kit.

the mums belly is white, so the otter mum isn't the steel.
it has to be the dad.

Right, I missed that. So the dutch-marked sire could definitely be a steeled otter.

the blacks and blue and otter baby could be steel but hiding it.

I don't think the otter kits (I actually see two with the otter ears) can hide steel - they'd look like the steeled otter shown above.


This issue is near and dear to my heart, as we've just solved a long-standing mystery of what we call "tweeners" (which we now know are steeled otters) with a GTS that just popped up in the same "self black" line that gave me the tweeners. It turns out I've had steel hiding in my black Satins for at least four generations!

but I can't fathom that Agouti kit at all.,

That's the rub. I'm hoping @judymac has some insight; I surely can't get an agouti out of either a self x otter cross or a supersteel x otter cross..

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

Right, I missed that. So the dutch-marked sire could definitely be a steeled otter.


I don't think the otter kits (I actually see two with the otter ears) can hide steel - they'd look like the steeled otter shown above.
View attachment 35306

This issue is near and dear to my heart, as we've just solved a long-standing mystery of what we call "tweeners" (which we now know are steeled otters) with a GTS that just popped up in the same "self black" line that gave me the tweeners. It turns out I've had steel hiding in my black Satins for at least four generations!


That's the rub. I'm hoping @judymac has some insight; I surely can't get an agouti out of either a self x otter cross or a supersteel x otter cross..

the Agouti is just a right spanner in works for this isn't it.
maybe they'll darken with age? But I doubt it.
it's like a flipping changeling XD

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

I've figured out that "chestnut"
it's still a steel.

This website mentions a fault that steel can have non steeled ears as a fault:
From https://www.rabbitcouncil.co.nz/info/rabbit-colours
"To be bright steel throughout. Head, feet ears and belly to match body colours....... Faults: Feet and ears not matching body colour"


This journal mentions steel can have a fault of being too brassy:
from Observations on Steel Color
"Faults are a lack of steel coloration over the back; brassy or yellow appearance"

From same journal,
This mentions how some don't look like steel but still are. :
"From my breeding experiments some grays (AAEsE) can carry a steel gene but look like typical grays. I tested this theory by using several gray does with steel in the background to a black buck half tort (aaEe). There were outstanding colored steels in some of the litters a"

Since this is a Dutch rabbit website, Gray is referring to the Agouti Dutch (also called brown grey or grey)


so since, it is genetically impossible for the kit to be agouti from my super steel and black otter pairing. they have to be a poorly marked steel with excessive bronzing and light coloured ear fault. Which is possible according to these sources.


@Alaska Satin

 

[judymac]

@judymac, do you have any ideas???

OK, I have no direct steel experience, but I see something else in the kit with the white agouti inner ears that puzzles me:

Does this look like faint harlequin banding? Especially at the rump where the color changes right at the midline? I know that in some of my harlequinized kits (where they are not really harlequin e(j) as the dominant, but carry it as a recessive to something else more dominant), I get some crazy ticking and odd color blotches that just doesn't match any known color pattern. Could we be looking at a harlequinized otter?

These littermates are out of a chestnut agouti that carries a recessive harlequin gene: The one on the right was born with dark inside the ears, the one on the left with the classic white inner ears. Their coat colors are identical, but you can see some of the odd color mottling on the left bun's face (the one on the right has it on its rump). This is the reason I try to keep the harlequin breeding in a totally separate program, it can crop up generations later, hiding in the background doing sneaky things you may or may not see. I was hoping by crossing the chestnut back to harlequin, I would get some nice harlequin kits; since she was out of a harlie herself, and produced more fiber than any of my other rabbits, I had high hopes. I was wrong. I just got a litter of these bizarre harlequinized kits.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

I've just talked to a steel rabbit group on Facebook.
https://facebook.com/groups/579518339695497/

---

They all said that kit was agouti.

---

Apparently, they say that A Ees, Esej and EsEs can all look like self black and not just super steel.

So it was possible, I've never heard the other can look like that (I've only heard of super steel bring self looking).


So happy we got to the bottom, it was an interesting mystery!

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

OK, I have no direct steel experience, but I see something else in the kit with the white agouti inner ears that puzzles me:
View attachment 35311
Does this look like faint harlequin banding? Especially at the rump where the color changes right at the midline?

what caused that patchy look is the fur is still coming through on the body. I held them yesterday and that kit is still getting the coat elsewhere. Must be the runt kit, they were a little smaller too.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I've figured out that "chestnut"
it's still a steel.

I think that kit's agouti markings are really too distinct to be a steel.

This website mentions a fault that steel can have non steeled ears as a fault:
From https://www.rabbitcouncil.co.nz/info/rabbit-colours
"To be bright steel throughout. Head, feet ears and belly to match body colours....... Faults: Feet and ears not matching body colour"

This is from the New Zealand standard, with which I have no experience, but interpreting it as I would the ARBA standard, the line "Feet and ears not matching body colour" would not necessarily mean agouti markings in the ears. In ticked and silvered rabbits, there can be a lot of variation in the intensity and color of ticking across the various parts of the animal. Here are examples of a steel and a champagne that I would fault for feet and ears not matching body color:

This journal mentions steel can have a fault of being too brassy:
from Observations on Steel Color
"Faults are a lack of steel coloration over the back; brassy or yellow appearance"

In Dutch, "Gray" is chestnut agouti," but the "Steel" this journal is describing is actually black silver-tipped steel (STS = steel + chinchilla to remove the gold tips), therefore in a steel Dutch, brassiness is a fault.

What you're dealing with, though, are gold-tipped steels (GTS) and agoutis (chestnuts, aka "Grays"), which are colors that are not affected by chinchilla genes. So using the Dutch color standard, one of your kits would be a "Gray" and the steeled kit would be an unrecognized color (since GTS is not accepted in Dutch, only STS).

A GTS definitely has yellows in it (see photo above of GTS New Zealand). Both gold-tipped steel and agouti are made of a combination of black and gold ticking, it's just that the <Es> gene kind of shoves the banding pattern way up the hairshaft on a steel.

"From my breeding experiments some grays (AAEsE) can carry a steel gene but look like typical grays. I tested this theory by using several gray does with steel in the background to a black buck half tort (aaEe). There were outstanding colored steels in some of the litters a"

I've just talked to a steel rabbit group on Facebook.
https://facebook.com/groups/579518339695497/

---

They all said that kit was agouti.

---

Apparently, they say that A Ees, Esej and EsEs can all look like self black and not just super steel.

So it was possible, I've never heard the other can look like that (I've only heard of super steel bring self looking).

OK, I have no direct steel experience, but I see something else in the kit with the white agouti inner ears that puzzles me:
View attachment 35311
Does this look like faint harlequin banding? Especially at the rump where the color changes right at the midline? I know that in some of my harlequinized kits (where they are not really harlequin e(j) as the dominant, but carry it as a recessive to something else more dominant), I get some crazy ticking and odd color blotches that just doesn't match any known color pattern. Could we be looking at a harlequinized otter?

I think this might be the answer... it seems that your facebook pals and @judymac's keen powers of observation nailed it. In the closeup I can surely see what looks like harlequinization. It does not look like any normal chestnut (or steel) color development I've ever seen; it generally doesn't happen in patches like that. But an <Aa...Esej> combination would explain both the black look on the sire and the funky coloring on the kit (which would be <A_Eej>, harlequinized castor).

If it was me I'd be all over trying a test breeding of the sire with a tort doe (which is why my barn has so many unshowable colors at the moment ).

P.S., thanks @Curiouslagomorph for the link to Jill Pfaff's "Observations on Steel Color" article - great information! Her notes on the Dutch steels not all having chin genes, but using a recessive dilute gene instead, are very interesting.

 

[judymac]

Apparently, they say that A Ees, Esej and EsEs can all look like self black and not just super steel.

There's an interesting chart at A/E Gene Combinations to show how the various E genes interact with A.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

I think that kit's agouti markings are really too distinct to be a steel.


This is from the New Zealand standard, with which I have no experience, but interpreting it as I would the ARBA standard, the line "Feet and ears not matching body colour" would not necessarily mean agouti markings in the ears. In ticked and silvered rabbits, there can be a lot of variation in the intensity and color of ticking across the various parts of the animal. Here are examples of a steel and a champagne that I would fault for feet and ears not matching body color:
View attachment 35320
View attachment 35319


In Dutch, "Gray" is chestnut agouti," but the "Steel" this journal is describing is actually black silver-tipped steel (STS = steel + chinchilla to remove the gold tips), therefore in a steel Dutch, brassiness is a fault.

What you're dealing with, though, are gold-tipped steels (GTS) and agoutis (chestnuts, aka "Grays"), which are colors that are not affected by chinchilla genes. So using the Dutch color standard, one of your kits would be a "Gray" and the steeled kit would be an unrecognized color (since GTS is not accepted in Dutch, only STS).

A GTS definitely has yellows in it (see photo above of GTS New Zealand). Both gold-tipped steel and agouti are made of a combination of black and gold ticking, it's just that the <Es> gene kind of shoves the banding pattern way up the hairshaft on a steel.




I think this might be the answer... it seems that your facebook pals and @judymac's keen powers of observation nailed it. In the closeup I can surely see what looks like harlequinization. It does not look like any normal chestnut (or steel) color development I've ever seen; it generally doesn't happen in patches like that. But an <Aa...Esej> combination would explain both the black look on the sire and the funky coloring on the kit (which would be <A_Eej>, harlequinized castor).

If it was me I'd be all over trying a test breeding of the sire with a tort doe (which is why my barn has so many unshowable colors at the moment ).

P.S., thanks @Curiouslagomorph for the link to Jill Pfaff's "Observations on Steel Color" article - great information! Her notes on the Dutch steels not all having chin genes, but using a recessive dilute gene instead, are very interesting.

no worries, does
yeah that kit is certainly chestnut (maybe even harliquinized).

So buck is most likely Chestnut gt steel Dutch or harliquinised chestnut gt steel Dutch.

unfortunately, not good for my aunt's Self black and self blue does. These are true self colours as from BRC registered breeder (from 5 time champion line too).

 

[MsTemeraire]

unfortunately, not good for my aunt's Self black and self blue does. These are true self colours as from BRC registered breeder (from 5 time champion line too).

Dutch in the UK can be supersteels, it's not unusual for the selfs to be masking steel.
They are usually A_ EsEs
but aa EsEs and aaEsE are also self black in appearance, so is aaEse, carrying non-extension, but that is less likely in a line of colour-bred Black/Blue Dutch.

Steel Dutch in the UK are all gold-tipped steel. The Chin gene has never been present in UK lines.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

Dutch in the UK can be supersteels, it's not unusual for the selfs to be masking steel.
They are usually A_ EsEs
but aa EsEs and aaEsE are also self black in appearance, so is aaEse, carrying non-extension, but that is less likely in a line of colour-bred Black/Blue Dutch.

Steel Dutch in the UK are all gold-tipped steel. The Chin gene has never been present in UK lines.

I disagree with chinchilla not present in uk lines.
I have been to shows with chinchilla Dutch and I know a breeder in uk who has Brc registered silver tipped steel Dutch, I've seen them in person at the luton and counties rabbit fancier show.

*edit* may not be sts, photos of steel Dutch I saw are in next post,
but have definitely seen chinchilla Dutch in uk.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Dutch in the UK can be supersteels, it's not unusual for the selfs to be masking steel.
They are usually A_ EsEs
but aa EsEs and aaEsE are also self black in appearance, so is aaEse, carrying non-extension, but that is less likely in a line of colour-bred Black/Blue Dutch.

Can you post a photo of a color-correct steel Dutch from the UK? Do you have the option for either gold-tipped or silver-tipped steels there?

Another question: I have been having steels pop up in my Satins and the self black steels <aa EsE>have what looks like a haze of extremely slight gold tip across the body. It's hard to capture in a photo, but if you use your imagination you might see it here, in front of its GTS and self black sibs. Do you find this in steel x self crossed Dutch?

Dutch in the UK can be supersteels, it's not unusual for the selfs to be masking steel.
They are usually A_ EsEs
but aa EsEs and aaEsE are also self black in appearance, so is aaEse, carrying non-extension, but that is less likely in a line of colour-bred Black/Blue Dutch.

Steel Dutch in the UK are all gold-tipped steel. The Chin gene has never been present in UK lines.

Yes, the American and UK standards are a bit different across many breeds. Apparently some/many American Dutch are also GTS, but the standard calls for a color that better describes STS (chin steel), calling for ticking to be off-white or cream. The GTS Dutch here must be selected for extremely low rufus agouti.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

Can you post a photo of a color-correct steel Dutch from the UK? Do you have the option for either gold-tipped or silver-tipped steels there?

Another question: I have been having steels pop up in my Satins and the self black steels <aa EsE>have what looks like a haze of extremely slight gold tip across the body. It's hard to capture in a photo, but if you use your imagination you might see it here, in front of its GTS and self black sibs. Do you find this in steel x self crossed Dutch?
View attachment 35432

Yes, the American and UK standards are a bit different across many breeds. Apparently some/many American Dutch are also GTS, but the standard calls for a color that better describes STS (chin steel), calling for ticking to be off-white or cream. The GTS Dutch here must be selected for extremely low rufus agouti.

Looking at the pictures I took, they may be gts. Can't tell.

but chinchilla Dutch are definitely in the uk (seen loads), so why not sts?

if anything uk has all of the Dutch colours and america is late to "common" colours like yellow (gold in us).


What steel are these? These are the ones I saw at show.

@Alaska Satin these are my pics I took of them,

 

[MsTemeraire]

I disagree with chinchilla not present in uk lines.
I have been to shows with chinchilla Dutch and I know a breeder in uk who has Brc registered silver tipped steel Dutch, I've seen them in person at the luton and counties rabbit fancier show.

Chin is not a recognised colour in UK, the United Kingdom Dutch Rabbit Club would not allow it. The last colour of dutch to be added to the UK breed standard was the Chocolate Dutch about 100 years ago.

 

[MsTemeraire]

Looking at the pictures I took, they may be gts. Can't tell.

but chinchilla Dutch are definitely in the uk (seen loads), so why not sts?

if anything uk has all of the Dutch colours and america is late to "common" colours like yellow (gold in us).

View attachment 35433View attachment 35434
What steel are these? These are the ones I saw at show.

@Alaska Satin these are my pics I took of them,

They're gold-tipped Steel, the gene to make silver tipped would be the Chin gene and that's not in the gene pool in the UK.