what are these "Ticked" rabbits from self and otter parents?

[MsTemeraire]

Can you post a photo of a color-correct steel Dutch from the UK? Do you have the option for either gold-tipped or silver-tipped steels there?

The breed standard does read similarly to the USA one (I understand the USA standards were based on the UK ones originally) but they aren't silver tipped.


This is a typical Steel Dutch. If you look closely you can see a small amount of yellow pigment in the colour.

 

[MsTemeraire]

Looking at the pictures I took, they may be gts. Can't tell.

but chinchilla Dutch are definitely in the uk (seen loads), so why not sts?

if anything uk has all of the Dutch colours and america is late to "common" colours like yellow (gold in us).

View attachment 35433View attachment 35434
What steel are these? These are the ones I saw at show.

@Alaska Satin these are my pics I took of them,

The complete list of colours of Dutch from the BRC breed standard:

 

[Alaska Satin]

The breed standard does read similarly to the USA one (I understand the USA standards were based on the UK ones originally) but they aren't silver tipped.
View attachment 35438

Thanks for the photo; yes, I do see yellow tones. It's interesting that UK the standard doesn't specify what color the ticking should be; it sounds like there is a range of color allowed, especially given the call for belly color to be a "lighter shade varying with the top color." The American standard specifies the ticking is to be off-white or cream (and I suppose cream allows for some small amount of yellow pigment) so I suspect there are both GTS and STS being shown as steel in the US. The only Dutch breeder (USA) I know doesn't do steels but she is an ARBA judge, so I'll ask her about it.

Looking at the pictures I took, they may be gts. Can't tell.

What steel are these? These are the ones I saw at show.

@Alaska Satin these are my pics I took of them,

Before this conversation I would have thought STS, but when I zoomed in, I saw definite gold ticking:

It's becoming apparent to me that very low-rufus GTS Dutch are what is often shown, even in America where the ticking is not supposed to be gold. Are these photos from a UK show?

if anything uk has all of the Dutch colours and america is late to "common" colours like yellow (gold in us).

Yes, the American Dutch Rabbit Club (ADRC, the national breed club, Home Page) seems to be extremely slow to accept new varieties into the standard. In 2021 the ARBA recognized Golden Yellow and Lilac (UK: pale grey) as exhibition varieties, meaning they have completed two of three hurdles toward getting full acceptance. Given a recent ARBA rule change, the ADRC could have simply voted in a number of varieties without going through the lengthy and expensive COD process, but they did not pursue any of them.

Thanks to @Curiouslagomorph and @MsTemeraire for this discussion - I'm learning a lot!

 

[MsTemeraire]

Yes, the American Dutch Rabbit Club (ADRC, the national breed club, Home Page) seems to be extremely slow to accept new varieties into the standard. In 2021 the ARBA recognized Golden Yellow and Lilac (UK: pale grey) as exhibition varieties,

Ah.... Pale Grey is not Lilac... there's considerable debate as to what it is though, as none have been seen for decades! But you'll see from the colour standard it's not Lilac. Lilacs do turn up in some Chocolate Dutch lines but they're not showable.


As I said above, the last recognised Dutch colour in the UK was Chocolate, approximately 100 years ago not long after the Havana (the first chocolate breed) was recognised in 1910. It's up to the UKDRC as to what colours they will recognise, hence nothing since then, and why the Tri-Colour Dutch (Harlequin Dutch) is a separate breed, despite having been in the UK since the 1960s.... the UKDRC considered them crossbreeds and refused to see them as 'proper' Dutch. That's also their opinion of Chinchilla and Lilac too. In theory, anyone could take them through the BRC's system of new colour recognition [fast track too, as the colours are recognised in Europe] but it's down to the breed club as to whether they will adopt them or not.

 

[MsTemeraire]

sorry double posted

 

[Alaska Satin]

Ah.... Pale Grey is not Lilac... there's considerable debate as to what it is though, as none have been seen for decades! But you'll see from the colour standard it's not Lilac. Lilacs do turn up in some Chocolate Dutch lines but they're not showable.
View attachment 35442

So interesting! I had the pale gray/lilac connection from a breeder here in the US, but you're right, that standard definitely does not describe lilac! Sounds like maybe a fawn or cream? What color is "biscuit?" That's not a term we use here.

Is there a way to search the UK studbook to see what other colors appeared in pale grays' pedigrees, when they were being shown and registered?

Also interesting that your standard retains the variety if none or shown or even seen. Here, if a variety is not represented at a certain level over the course of five year, it is dismissed.

I'm thinking the big discrepancy and mysteries in Dutch colors (different names and different desirable characteristics) compared to many other breeds is due to the relatively ancient and very conserved standards for the breed.

 

[MsTemeraire]

So interesting! I had the pale gray/lilac connection from a breeder here in the US, but you're right, that standard definitely does not describe lilac! Sounds like maybe a fawn or cream? What color is "biscuit?" That's not a term we use here.

It's the only breed standard using the term here!
I guess we'd call it a light creamy fawn, maybe like a Rich Tea biscuit (or even an American biscuit).

Is there a way to search the UK studbook to see what other colors appeared in pale grays' pedigrees, when they were being shown and registered?

Sad;y not as pedigrees have never been an official thing here, purely voluntary, and not recorded.

Also interesting that your standard retains the variety if none or shown or even seen. Here, if a variety is not represented at a certain level over the course of five year, it is dismissed.

Some of ours have been, in the past, but we mostly keep them. I can think of no genetic colour for Pale Grey that could have that combination of hair colours, unless it was a very washed-out Brown-Grey, or perhaps a wideband low rufous Brown-Grey. Others have speculated it might be Opal, or even blue steel, but they wouldn't be right either.

I'm thinking the big discrepancy and mysteries in Dutch colors (different names and different desirable characteristics) compared to many other breeds is due to the relatively ancient and very conserved standards for the breed.

For sure!

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

Thanks for the photo; yes, I do see yellow tones. It's interesting that UK the standard doesn't specify what color the ticking should be; it sounds like there is a range of color allowed, especially given the call for belly color to be a "lighter shade varying with the top color." The American standard specifies the ticking is to be off-white or cream (and I suppose cream allows for some small amount of yellow pigment) so I suspect there are both GTS and STS being shown as steel in the US. The only Dutch breeder (USA) I know doesn't do steels but she is an ARBA judge, so I'll ask her about it.


Before this conversation I would have thought STS, but when I zoomed in, I saw definite gold ticking:
View attachment 35441
It's becoming apparent to me that very low-rufus GTS Dutch are what is often shown, even in America where the ticking is not supposed to be gold. Are these photos from a UK show?


Yes, the American Dutch Rabbit Club (ADRC, the national breed club, Home Page) seems to be extremely slow to accept new varieties into the standard. In 2021 the ARBA recognized Golden Yellow and Lilac (UK: pale grey) as exhibition varieties, meaning they have completed two of three hurdles toward getting full acceptance. Given a recent ARBA rule change, the ADRC could have simply voted in a number of varieties without going through the lengthy and expensive COD process, but they did not pursue any of them.

Thanks to @Curiouslagomorph and @MsTemeraire for this discussion - I'm learning a lot!

Yes the Dutch photos are from the uk, I took them at the Luton and counties rabbit fancier show from Feb this year.

 

[Curiouslagomorph]

.... the UKDRC considered them crossbreeds and refused to see them as 'proper' Dutch. That's also their opinion of Chinchilla and Lilac too.

the same thing happens with cats.
the Siamese cat has many related breeds that are identical (because they are technically the same breed) but became separate due to this opinion.

the Siamese was separated into classic (traditional is very rare) and modern. Eventually the classic became the "Thai", ironic as it came before modern

the long haired Siamese is called the "Balinese" , isn't actually from Bali.

newer colours like flame point and lynx point turned into the "colourpoint shorthair", the long hair version is called "Javanese" (not from Java)

the non pointed variety was called "oriental shorthair (and oriental longhair.)"

the pure white is called the "foreign white"

Yet they are the exact same cat!!!!!

Others include the Manx and Cymric (long hair),
Persian and himilayan and exotic shorthair ,
British shorthair and British longhair.

 

[MsTemeraire]

the same thing happens with cats.
the Siamese cat has many related breeds that are identical (because they are technically the same breed) but became separate due to this opinion.

Cat Fancy politics is even worse, yes! It depends on what registration body/country though as they all have their own policies and breed recognition, some even have different breed names.

The GCCF in the UK is a bit more sensible than some, and regards all colourpointed Orientals as Siamese. Those that aren't pointed are Oriental Shorthairs, which were originally called Foreign Black, Foreign White etc. Their colour names are more simple as well - tabby point, red point, cream point etc. However they don't recognise Classic or Traditional Siamese separately, and their 'Thai' breed derives from colourpointed cats that naturally appeared in Korat litters in the 1980s.

 

[Dimplz]

I hope this helps everyone who needs it. I have a rabbit who is an Shaded STS out of a Silver Fox crossed with and American Chinchilla. So I have been working on figuring out these gene combos for a while. In my searching I found very helpful information from a video on you tube called Advanced Rabbit Color Genetics by Dr. Stephan Roush.

I am no expert, but from the colors and patterns I am seeing in my litter, I think I can see similar genes. I think you definately have two chestnuts, one regular and one gold tipped steel. I also see maybe two siamese sables. I see dense and dilute kits as well.

I do not know enough about the japanese gene to comment on it, but the colored bandings look just like the coat changes my siamese sables go through. The body coloring is dark in some areas and light in others. It affects parts of the body, that as the rabbit changes and ages, looks like the japanese gene.

I hope this chart helps. Think about this for a moment. To get a super steel, each parent has to contribute the Es gene. Remember, the steel gene only has dominance over the agouti gene.

 

[Dimplz]

Ignore the two smallest kits in this picture. Forsters from another litter.

The 4 larger kits, 2 black and 2 chestnut.

Parent's known genotypes are:
Sire = AaB_c(chl)_DdEsE
Dam = aaB_C_DDee

Chestnut's genotypes = AaB_C_D_Ee
The other two seem be self black except they are not. They have a black base color blown up the shaft in some places, and seem to be developing very light gold and tan colored speckles just under a black ticking. When I blow in to the fur, it looks like faint rings, broken apart by an explosion. Little specs everywhere towards the top of the shaft, just below black tips.

My guess is they are AaB_C_D_Ese.