vienna vs. dutch

[paintrider89]

Because I now have a dutch buck, I have been doing some research on Vienna, as that's what my does carry, I thought. After reading more, it seems likely I could have dutch with incomplete markings rather than Vienna. I bred two what I think would be viennas to their dad, also who I thought was Vienna, but in both litters, 16 kits all together, I didn't get any new? Though I have read it is tricky.Also Vienna is linked with blue eyes, even in it's sports, well all of mine have brown eyes. Some are light smoky, but no blue blue.

On a different topic, if I breed my dutch buck to these Vienna does, will it make it hard to tell which are vienna, and which carry the dutch? I'm not incredibly worried, as mane focus is tri colored harleys. Which is the more dominant gene?

A third thought is if my does are indeed Vienna, I may want to pick up a vm buck to keep a vm line going in case I want to attemp new in the future.

There doesn't seem to be much information when I look online. I almost wonder if it will be experiment and keep records.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

opcorn:

 

[Dood]

Dutch (Du/du) and Vienna (V/v) are both recessive.

Your dutch buck ( dudu & VV) his vienna carrier daughters (Dudu & Vv) should produce 50% dutch and 50% Vienna carriers.

The problem with Vienna carriers is they do not always show white marks, even in solid coloured rabbits, so the chance of figuring out who is Vienna or not in a litter if dutch (or broken) who already have white patches is nearly impossible.

Do not rely on blue eyes as an indicator of Vienna as Dutch often have lovely blue eyes as well. It is a disqualification and not encouraged but it does crop up, especially when not selectively breeding for the Dutch SOP.<br /><br />__________ Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:37 am __________<br /><br />vienna-modifier-genes-t14946.html?hilit=Vienna

 

[paintrider89]

So both drill work well in my tri Harley line. And if both have blue eye traits that is even more exciting. But it does sound like a need to keep a Vienna stud as well, to keep a line going I know is Vienna. Not dutch marked.

 

[jaxmarblebuns]

Do all Dutch rabbits have the Vienna gene? (And that’s why they have the markings they do and are prone to Heterochromia and blue eyes)

I always thought that rabbits with the “Dutch” pattern had to carry the Vienna gene to be able to have that pattern. But, someone recently told me different and I can’t find a strait answer anywhere.

The reply in question “Dutch and vienna marked aren't actually related... them looking similar is mostly a coincidence.”

 

[Alaska Satin]

Do all Dutch rabbits have the Vienna gene? (And that’s why they have the markings they do and are prone to Heterochromia and blue eyes)

I always thought that rabbits with the “Dutch” pattern had to carry the Vienna gene to be able to have that pattern. But, someone recently told me different and I can’t find a strait answer anywhere.

The reply in question “Dutch and vienna marked aren't actually related... them looking similar is mostly a coincidence.”

The genes for dutch and vienna genes are in separate places on the genome.

The partially recessive allele for Vienna is <v> with the partially dominant non-vienna being <V>.

There are actually at least three alleles possible in the Dutch gene series. The non-Dutch dominant allele is <Du>. Two partially dominant alleles can produce dutch markings: <dud> aka Dark Dutch, a heavily marked Dutch pattern, and <duw> or White Dutch, a lighter marked Dutch pattern.

In Dutch rabbits, vienna alleles would mess with eye color and cause white spots where you do not want them. As far as I know, Dutch rabbits generally only carry Dutch. That's not to say that some breeders might not have added vienna to some lines, but it would not overall be a helpful thing in terms of color.

Interestingly, Blanc de Hotots and Dwarf Hotots have both dutch and broken genes (but not the Vienna gene, which would, again, cause problems with eye color). Blancs are completely white with dark eye circles.

Two copies of the broken allele (producing a rabbit called a called charlie) wipes out most color on the rabbit but usually leaves color on the eyes and nose; adding the dutch gene further reduces the chances of getting color on the nose (since the dutch alleles usually produce a white blaze), but leaves the eye circles.

Blancs do have occasional problems with blue "china eyes" but that is due to a linkage between the broken and dutch genes, not the vienna gene. ("Linkage" means the broken and dutch gene are close to each other on the chromosome, so their inheritance is not independent.)

An interesting thing I've heard from friends who breed blancs is that they have persistent problems with tiny black spots on the ears. This isn't surprising since both the dutch and broken alleles normally leave color on the ears.

People who breed Blancs end up getting often end up getting what are called "sports" which, not surprisingly, look like dutch rabbits:

 

[ladysown]

huh, learned something new!

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

So both drill work well in my tri Harley line. And if both have blue eye traits that is even more exciting. But it does sound like a need to keep a Vienna stud as well, to keep a line going I know is Vienna. Not dutch marked.

That depends. Are you breeding for BEW or just VM markings? If you want BEW you'll need a VM buck, but if you just want VM marking AVOID the VM buck because you're likely to get a whole whack of white babies in a VM x VM pairing

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

The genes for dutch and vienna genes are in separate places on the genome.

The partially recessive allele for Vienna is <v> with the partially dominant non-vienna being <V>.

There are actually at least three alleles possible in the Dutch gene series. The non-Dutch dominant allele is <Du>. Two partially dominant alleles can produce dutch markings: <dud> aka Dark Dutch, a heavily marked Dutch pattern, and <duw> or White Dutch, a lighter marked Dutch pattern.

In Dutch rabbits, vienna alleles would mess with eye color and cause white spots where you do not want them. As far as I know, Dutch rabbits generally only carry Dutch. That's not to say that some breeders might not have added vienna to some lines, but it would not overall be a helpful thing in terms of color.

Interestingly, Blanc de Hotots and Dwarf Hotots have both dutch and broken genes (but not the Vienna gene, which would, again, cause problems with eye color). Blancs are completely white with dark eye circles.
View attachment 34790
Two copies of the broken allele (producing a rabbit called a called charlie) wipes out most color on the rabbit but usually leaves color on the eyes and nose; adding the dutch gene further reduces the chances of getting color on the nose (since the dutch alleles usually produce a white blaze), but leaves the eye circles.

Blancs do have occasional problems with blue "china eyes" but that is due to a linkage between the broken and dutch genes, not the vienna gene. ("Linkage" means the broken and dutch gene are close to each other on the chromosome, so their inheritance is not independent.)

An interesting thing I've heard from friends who breed blancs is that they have persistent problems with tiny black spots on the ears. This isn't surprising since both the dutch and broken alleles normally leave color on the ears.

People who breed Blancs end up getting often end up getting what are called "sports" which, not surprisingly, look like dutch rabbits:
View attachment 34791View attachment 34792

Interesting, I've wondered about hothots for a while, do you see a large prevalence of megacolon in hothots? It's supposed to be linked to Charlie's but I've been specifically avoiding Charlie's for this reason so I have no data of my own. A Charlie would be nice for my color breeding program though, if there aren't going to be health issues, and I'm hesitant to believe an entire breed would be based off an animal with problematic health..... But then Bulldogs exist so.....

 

[judymac]

Charlies are on the other broken pattern gene, coded En for English Spot, since that is the gene responsible for the spotting in that breed. It is a dominant gene, so one En copy is all you need for a broken kit to occur. Double En En is what can potentially cause megacolon, it also is what reduces the color down to just a little on the eye rings, a few spots down the spine, and often a mustache on the nose, which is why it is named Charlie for the Charlie Chaplin mustache.

A tricolor typically has the harlequin gene that puts the different bands of dark and yellowish color on the agouti hairshaft on patches of skin instead of on the individual hairshaft; and also the En dominant spotting gene to add the third color (white), making it a tricolor, 'tri' for short.

I don't show, so I don't know if using the Dutch (or VM) genetics will give you the proper balance of color for a showable tricolor. I know that having the proper butterfly of color (or two balanced dark spots) on the nose are important to the pattern, and I don't see the Dutch pattern giving that. Also, it seems that most tricolors have spots of color, due to the En spotting gene.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Charlies are on the other broken pattern gene, coded En for English Spot, since that is the gene responsible for the spotting in that breed. It is a dominant gene, so one En copy is all you need for a broken kit to occur. Double En En is what can potentially cause megacolon, it also is what reduces the color down to just a little on the eye rings, a few spots down the spine, and often a mustache on the nose, which is why it is named Charlie for the Charlie Chaplin mustache.

A tricolor typically has the harlequin gene that puts the different bands of dark and yellowish color on the agouti hairshaft on patches of skin instead of on the individual hairshaft; and also the En dominant spotting gene to add the third color (white), making it a tricolor, 'tri' for short.

I don't show, so I don't know if using the Dutch (or VM) genetics will give you the proper balance of color for a showable tricolor. I know that having the proper butterfly of color (or two balanced dark spots) on the nose are important to the pattern, and I don't see the Dutch pattern giving that. Also, it seems that most tricolors have spots of color, due to the En spotting gene.

Oh I see, I thought OP meant for pets, but OP you mean to create a broken or tri? For that you would need En to have a showable rabbit. VM is a dq in most breeds, and neither VM nor dutch would give you appropriate markings to call it a tri.

I have a VM Harli, here is a photo:

His sister is also VM Harli, The only thing that looks different on her from a normal Harli is that she has one booted foot, and not a single one in their litter look like a tri.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Interesting, I've wondered about hothots for a while, do you see a large prevalence of megacolon in hothots? It's supposed to be linked to Charlie's but I've been specifically avoiding Charlie's for this reason so I have no data of my own. A Charlie would be nice for my color breeding program though, if there aren't going to be health issues, and I'm hesitant to believe an entire breed would be based off an animal with problematic health..... But then Bulldogs exist so.....

I've heard mixed reports when it come to megacolon in Blancs and Dwarf Hotos.

The breeders I personally know with Blanc de Hotots have had nothing but trouble with them. The one that has had them the longest has never opened one up and I never thought to ask her about the poop shape/size, but she has lost rabbit after rabbit to mystery issues that make me suspect megacolon. She even had the original breeder tell her that to stay healthy, Blanc does can only be bred once a year (which is just bizarre for a meat breed!).

Dwarf Papillons seem to be having issues with megacolon as well. Charlies are produced by breeders that breed properly-marked animals together instead of using janets (solid sports). I've heard a number of stories about megacolon in the charlies that come from this breed, although if you can breed a healthy charlie to a janet you get entire litters of marked kits. Show-quality Papillons are not charlies, though, so the correctly-marked animals are not likely to have megacolon.

On the other hand, the only person I know who breeds Dwarf Hotos has had them for three generations now and she says they are like clockwork in terms of health and breeding success.

So, I suspect that like many other healthy issues, there are numerous other genetic factors that affect whether the condition shows up or not. My friend with the dwarfs apparently hit the jackpot.

As far as using a charlie in your program, I'd look for a healthy one. They do exist! The megacolon risk is higher in charlies, but they're not all compromised. The key would be to get an animal that is fully mature, even a bit older, as the condition tends to be progressive. A young junior might not show any symptoms for quite a while.

And yeah, bulldogs...!

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

I've heard mixed reports when it come to megacolon in Blancs and Dwarf Hotos.

The breeders I personally know with Blanc de Hotots have had nothing but trouble with them. The one that has had them the longest has never opened one up and I never thought to ask her about the poop shape/size, but she has lost rabbit after rabbit to mystery issues that make me suspect megacolon. She even had the original breeder tell her that to stay healthy, Blanc does can only be bred once a year (which is just bizarre for a meat breed!).

Dwarf Papillons seem to be having issues with megacolon as well. Charlies are produced by breeders that breed properly-marked animals together instead of using janets (solid sports). I've heard a number of stories about megacolon in the charlies that come from this breed, although if you can breed a healthy charlie to a janet you get entire litters of marked kits. Show-quality Papillons are not charlies, though, so the correctly-marked animals are not likely to have megacolon.

On the other hand, the only person I know who breeds Dwarf Hotos has had them for three generations now and she says they are like clockwork in terms of health and breeding success.

So, I suspect that like many other healthy issues, there are numerous other genetic factors that affect whether the condition shows up or not. My friend with the dwarfs apparently hit the jackpot.

As far as using a charlie in your program, I'd look for a healthy one. They do exist! The megacolon risk is higher in charlies, but they're not all compromised. The key would be to get an animal that is fully mature, even a bit older, as the condition tends to be progressive. A young junior might not show any symptoms for quite a while.

And yeah, bulldogs...!

Thank you!!!