Variety listed on pedigree not possible?

[fhjmom]

So, I am looking closer at the pedigrees of my rabbits, trying to understand more about the genetics and potential breeding outcomes. I have a good grasp of the agouti/tan/self (A), black/chocolate (B), and dilute (D) genes an how they interact, but I am still working on understanding all the C and E possibilities and all of the resulting phenotypes.

I have a chestnut doe (rabbit 1)* that we purchased and her parents are listed on her pedigree as:
Rabbit 1's parents - Sire: steel (A-B-C-D-EsE) x Dam/Rabbit 2: Chestnut (A-B-C-D-E-)

No problem there, but the parents of the chestnut dam/rabbit 2 are listed as both being chinchillas:

Rabbit 2's parents - Sire: chinchilla (A-B-cchd-D-E-) x Dam: chinchilla (A-B-cchd-D-E-) = Offspring: chestnut/rabbit 2 (A-B-C-D-E-) ???

I am correct in understanding that there has to be an error here somewhere. Since both parents are listed as having the cchd chinchilla gene expressed, there is no way that one of them could have passed on a C allele necessary for a chestnut offspring, right?

So if there is an error, do I need to note that somehow on the pedigree? Is so, how? If I don't note it, is it something that you would mention to potential buyers of offspring from rabbit 1, since she would be the grand-dam and her chinchilla (?) parents would be great-grand-parents of any babies we sell.

One other question on rabbit 1's sire's side. Am I correct in understanding that rabbit 1 cannot carry the Es gene without expressing that gene? So if she is a chestnut, she had to get the E allele from dad, correct?

BTW, rabbit 1 in this scenario is the mother of the kits in the other thread I posted asking about the color of chestnut kits at birth.

Thanks for any clarification you can offer. I understand the genotypes on paper; I am just having a hard time visualizing the phenotypes to go with the extension and chin possibilities because I am just not all that familiar with what the colors actually look like. I look at the pictures of the different shading and banding in my ND club book and I have a hard time distinguishing the differences. I guess the longer I look at rabbit fur the more it will make sense... I hope! LOL!!

 

[Dood]

Two chinchillas cannot create a chestnut so there is a mistake.

Only ARBA registered rabbits need a perfect pedigree so I woulnt worry about it too much but personally I would point out to buyers that the mistake is from the previous breeder and not you.

Steel cannot hide in agouti based rabbits so the buck must have passed on "Es" and the dam "E" or "e", however some steel are quite light and could pass as chestnut to the untrained eye.

 

[fhjmom]

Two chinchillas cannot create a chestnut so there is a mistake.

Only ARBA registered rabbits need a perfect pedigree so I woulnt worry about it too much but personally I would point out to buyers that the mistake is from the previous breeder and not you.

Steel cannot hide in agouti based rabbits so the buck must have passed on "Es" and the dam "E" or "e", however some steel are quite light and could pass as chestnut to the untrained eye.

We are breeding for show and some people around here do prefer to register, especially if they are GC eligible, so not being able to register them is somewhat troublesome to me.

Rabbit 1 does seem to be fairly dark for a chestnut, but her nose has lighter hairs around the nostrils and her underside is definitely white, so I think she is really a chestnut. My eye is definitely "untrained" so I could be wrong! Her ears are very dark and she has this weird dark "V" over her eyes with the point in the middle of her forehead. My kids say she looks like she has a unibrow, LOL!

I don't think the breeder we bought her from had her parents so who knows where that mistake with the chinchilla parents/chestnut offspring occurred along the line, whether it was a mis-identification of variety or just an error on the paperwork. I am thinking there was probably an error on the paperwork and the grandsire was probably a chestnut (his parents were a chestnut and a black, so one of them could have possibly had a hidden chinchilla cchd allele to pass along and the other may have had some other recessive allele but a chestnut offspring would be much more likely).

 

[akane]

I'm not sure how much attention ARBA pays to genotype. There are probably thousands of misidentified rabbits and some genetics that aren't fully understood. They don't care if there's an unrecognized variety on the ped so I'm not sure if they really care that all recorded colors follow what is best known about the genetics. Sometimes you get some interesting stuff that looks self black such as a self chin, super steel, or dark seal. How is anyone supposed to know what it is until they've bred it enough and have enough genetic knowledge to go off the parents and offspring? Even horse registries that do keep track of genetics there are a variety of phenotype names for genotypes that are identical. Kind of like the varying shades of chestnut with it's individual names you have all sorts of red based horses like chestnut, sorrel, and brown that are technically the same genes with unmapped modifiers. They pretty much just ignore what name people choose to call their red horse or the various shades of bay horses.

 

[Dood]

Akane makes a good point - ARBA has better things to do than check colour so it likely wont be a problem especially if it is a grand or great grand parents colour that doesn't make sense :mrgreen:

I am more familar with the dog showing world where if somebody gets a "bee in their bonnet" they can nit pick over a dogs pedigree and get them disqualified and "off" colours can indicate cross breeding in a dogs history - check out "blue" or "silver" Labrador Retrievers

 

[skysthelimit]

There aren't supposed to be any DQ's on the ped, but having a color that could not come from another, like an opal from two torts on a holland ped, should not cause a problem, if the color is recognized.
Strangely AKC will register colors that are DQ's in the show ring, like, whites, blues, livers, panda...

 

[Prisma]

Similar topic came up on another thread on FB for correct pedigree issues, whether to record the rabbit as what is seen (pheno) or what it truly is (geno). The overall opinion since rabbits are shown based on what you see, record pheno type as geno would be incorrect based on how showing works...a rew was used as an example since it can hide colors and you don't put down what it is hiding you put down red eyed white on a pedigree. SO I don't think the ARBA is going to care, if really you cannot get x from z rabbits as far as the color combinations go.