Vaccinations

[Bob Glass]

The question of treating symptomatic rabbits with this product must be prefaced by the statement that this product is not licensed for treatment of infected animals. This is not prohibitive and the question of wether it may be beneficial has not been addressed in controlled studies. That being said there are anecdotal reports of diminished symptoms after treatment. We plan to investigate this question at some point in the future. The answer to the question of wether treating an infected animal with a killed preparation of the infecting organism may be beneficial is yes, it may in some cases. The rabies example givenTMTex is a good case in point and the reply that the treatment is given in advance of significant active disease is a valid counter point. Another example of this "Immunotherapy" is treatment of Pythium insidiosum infection in horses, dogs and even humans. This oomycete is a relatively uncommon but is fatal in most cases unless a series of injection containing purified protein derived from the infecting Pythium is given. With this treatment even advanced cases show a cure rate near 90%. Another example is latent Chicken pox infection commonly known as Shingles. In this disease vaccination with the Chicken Pox vaccine has been beneficial in many cases. There are several reasons this type of treatment may work 1) The living infecting organism often has a surface coating (such as lipopolysaccharide chains) that "cloaks" the organism from the immune system . This "cloaking" device is damaged or removed when the organism is killed thus exposing the organism to the immune system and inducing greater immunity 2) the dose of a killed infectious organism can be very large since it is dead and exotoxins are often neutralized in the killed product. Again this will provide a greater immune stimulation than may occur in chronic low grade infection. While there is no proof that the Pasteurella vaccine will provide benefit to infected animals the anecdotal reports do raise an interesting avenue of investigation.

 

[skysthelimit]

Very interesting.

Perhaps the dispute is whether or not the assumption that the disease cannot be cured oor not is true?

 

[OneAcreFarm]

My only worry is chicken pox- if not contracted as a youngster, the pox virus can be very dangerous for adults. Unfortunately, since most people vaccinate for it, I was never able to find a child with it to expose my kids to.

Another problem with the fact that children are vaccinated against chicken pox is that in order to have immunity to the shingles virus, adults need to be exposed to children with chicken pox, so we will see a rise in the cases of shingles in the adult population.

On your off topic rant... LOL

My husband is 43 and has never had chicken pox. He's in a real quandary right now on what to do! The chicken pox vaccine has been shown to cause shingles in adults who get the vaccine, and the shingles vaccine is not safe for him to take (I can't remember why.....).

So he's obviously scared. He travels all over the country for work, inspecting facilities and people and interacts with the public as part of his job, and we've been SO SCARED that he's going to get really really sick. Because he's never had the chicken pox, as soon as I was allowed I got my daughter the vaccine. I do not want her to expose him to the virus.

I sure wish he had just had chicken pox as a child. I'd be a lot less worried.

Shingles and Chicken Pox are one and the same, Varicella Zoster. When you first contract it, it is Chicken Pox. After you recover, the virus lives on in your central nervous system and can be reactivated by stress and other things that lower your immune response. Once you have Chicken Pox, you are at risk of developing shingles for the rest of your life.

__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:15 pm __________

Bumping this thread because of all the buzz on facebook rabbit groups about this vaccine. It definitely seems to be a viable prevention method and in some cases looks like it even suppresses symptoms in already infected/symptomatic rabbits. I ordered a vial and will report my results in a few weeks. opcorn:

Suppressing symptoms is not a cure. It's a false sense of security. Vaccines, by nature, are supposed to prevent, not treat, illness. I think this needs more clinical testing by third party sources.

__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:16 pm __________

The Pasteurella vaccine uses a "dead" culture of the P. multocida bacteria, which stimulates an immune response and antibody production. So vaccinated animals wouldn't be able to infect non-vaccinated animals any more so than non-vaccinated animals infect each other. Other vaccines, like the flu, etc. use live "weakened" viruses, which can indeed mutate, etc.

I'm just putting my 2 cents in, not trying to rile anyone up

But, it only uses ONE strain of P and it is a Bovine strain at that... :shock:

__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:17 pm __________

A Pasturella Vaccine would be awesome! I looked up the facebook page on the vaccine and sent a request to join. Since the Pan American Vet Labs is fairly local, I wonder if I could just cruise by there and pick up some of the vaccine. I'll give them a call and see.

A local breeder I know vaccinated her whole show herd of ND rabbits....they ALL developed abcesses and hair loss at the injection site. I know her personally, so I can vouch for the truth of this statement. Before anyone thinks I am badmouthing, she posted it herself on Facebook and says that Bob is in communication with her to figure out what is happening. Could be a bad batch of vaccine or something else. I am glad that he is working with her to figure it out, but this is one of the reasons I don't like to be the first to try new things like this.

__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:19 pm __________

Apparently sub cutaneous (SC) offers better immunity than intra-nasal (IN)

IgG activity was significantly greater in rabbits vaccinated SC compared with controls or those vaccinated IN. In summary, PTE can be used to stimulate protective immunity to a heterologous strain of P. multocida, with stronger immunity generated by SC than IN vaccination

__________ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:41 pm __________

I cannot find info on the specific strains or sero- types it is effective against.

I am worried it is a cash grab for panicked non-science type breeders and owners who dont realize there are over 40 strains of P in rabbits and only the capsular type 'A' and some 'D' strains are problematic and can cause death. If the vaccine is for type 'B' you are wasting your money as a rabbit can live its whole life with this strain and NEVER have symptoms.

:yeahthat: This vaccine uses only a single strain...

__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:22 pm __________

One thing everyone is missing here.. A HEALTHY IMMUNE system is one that works period! Either it is being challenged by something and it is producing antibodies or it is at rest. Vaccines are tools that CHALLENGE that immune system to produce antibodies. If the immune system is not healthy then it would not work at all and the animal would in all likelihood die of whatever it contracted. It is the immune system itself that does the work not the vaccine. The vaccine just introduces the type of immunity one is looking for. The immune system DOES NOT stop an animal from contracting pasturella. that animal will still get it healthy as well as not. The snot and sneezing is the immune system working to fight that infection. The vaccine is made up of killed/weakened virus that elicits an extra strong response from the immune system.The only way one would know if their rabbits have healthy immune systems would be to have them exposed to a live pasturella infection and see if they live.Having the vaccine would mean a rabbit would fight this off at the get go and not shed live pasturella to everyone else in the barn or at a show or at a new barn when they were sold.When this vaccine becomes widely used and it will be, the economic losses from this very widespread disease will be almost eradicated!Also I do believe this vaccination is made up of several species of pasturella and in most likelihood will evolve as we go along.

The documentation says only one strain....

__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:30 pm __________

If you just stepped on a nail then you ARE NOT sick with tetanus. If you came in with a festering wound and/or muscles spasms because you stepped on a nail a week ago they wouldn't dare give you a tetanus shot.

If you have a rabbit shooting snot it has an ACTIVE long term infection that may or may not be pasturella and giving an immuno compromised animal one more infection to fight - from the killed vaccine - could push them over the edge.

That's not universally true. For instance, the Rabies Vaccine is a killed virus that's given post exposure. The vaccine helps the immune system recognize the infection and respond quicker than it would without the vaccine.

This seems similar, although with Rabies, virtually 100% of exposed individuals die without the vaccine. The rabbits seem to fair better from Pasteurella.

<edit> And welcome aboard, Bob! I'm glad you could make it. </edit>

Actually, they give both the rabies vaccine (prevention) AND Rabies Immuno Globulin (treatment). However, if the person is showing symptoms of rabies, it doesn't matter what they give, that person will likely die anyway. Only a very few people survive an active rabies infection...

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

when I posted on FB about the Choco angora with the snot, it was suggested that giving her the vaccine would clear that up

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

NEVER vaccinate a sick animal EVER!

Great, another thing to worry about - people treating vaccines like antibiotics and making things worse.

AGREED!!!!!!!! Vaccines can have dire results in an already ill animal!

Actually, they give both the rabies vaccine (prevention) AND Rabies Immuno Globulin (treatment). However, if the person is showing symptoms of rabies, it doesn't matter what they give, that person will likely die anyway. Only a very few people survive an active rabies infection...

Beat me to it. Exactly, though.

I'm still a little leery of this vaccine. I won't be using it anytime soon, not until I know more, and especially if it is only for one strain of Pasturella.

 

[TMTex]

I picked up my vial today and will get some needles. I plan to vaccinate my inside pet rabbit and build another hutch to put my secondary buck into. Once he has his new hutch, I'll vaccinate him. I'll watch them before vaccinating the rest of the breeders.

I won't be vaccinating the growout pens or new litters unless I see an exceptional bunny among them. They'll be fryers.

 

[Miss M]

Please keep us posted on your observations, TMTex!

 

[TMTex]

I'll do that, Miss M. I went to the vet today and she gave me two 1cc syringes and 22 ga needles for free. That was nice of her. I just need to move the buns from the growout/quarantine enclosure to the main rabbit run, build a hutch in there, move my secondary buck to said hutch and do the first vaccinations. My priority, though, is to start the peltier cooler field test. I should be ready for that sometime tomorrow, so the vaccinations might start Sunday.

 

[lissapell]

WOW I came back to update and found all these awesome posts!
So..... I talked to Bob A LOT. He sent me the information that had been typed up on the Vaccine. He is very informative but does not push his vaccine. He seems to be very honest and open about the information they have collected on the vaccine and tells you "we dont know" when they dont have the inforamtion.
If you remember we made the 18 hr round trip to the KY cup to purchase quality rabbits. We made it through out 30 day QT with flying colors. Then after a month and a half BAM sick snotty rabbit. Then just before 60 days BAM BAM BAM. Multiple sneezes. We vaccinated all our rabbits. Those we suspected were sick (no snot previously) became snotty, snooty, rabbits. We had one with snot from his paws to his arm pits. We had weepy eyes and snotty noses and just overall GROSSness.
I believe the vaccine made the sick rabbits, who were being able to fight it off enough we were having trouble figuring what was happening, show us who was sick. These sick rabbits were able to wipe out half of our herd b/c we were unable to tell what was going on in the early stages.
Our plan right now is to vaccinate any initial breeders we have. We raise rabbits for food so the kits will remain unvacc'd unless they are sold as show stock to someone who is requesting vaccination.
Breeding for immune systems is VERY important. My main fear is that people will continue to use the vaccination as a "cure" rather than cull the rabbits that get sick.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Breeding for immune systems is VERY important. My main fear is that people will continue to use the vaccination as a "cure" rather than cull the rabbits that get sick.

:yeahthat: This is my fear as well. I don't purchase from people that treat for P with ABX and I SURELY won't be purchasing from anyone using the vaccine, since too many seem to think it is a CURE, which it isn't.

 

[phillinley]

I don't purchase from people that treat for P with ABX and I SURELY won't be purchasing from anyone using the vaccine, since too many seem to think it is a CURE, which it isn't.

I will also be sure to put on the pedigrees and mention specifically that our rabbits are vaccinated so no one gets any of ours without knowing what they're getting.


We got the vaccine in the mail today and vaccinated everybody but the flemish 10 weekers in the growout cages in the lawn since many of them will be going out for sale soon and it says on the bottle not to vaccinate if going to slaughter within 21 days. We ended up with one tough hided rabbit where the needle didn't go through all the way and I got a vaccine spray to the face (idiot). But other than that it went like clockwork.