Vaccinations

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TM,

How exciting that you will get to meet Mr. Glass!

You should invite him to join RT. :) It would be great to have a medical professional on board. :p

Could you act as my proxy and ask him why it is not offered in an intranasal version since that is (I believe) typically the transmission route for the respiratory forms of "P". Also ask him if the systemic type is transmitted through wounds or if it is transmissible in other ways.

I would also like to know if "P" can morph from respiratory to systemic. When I bought my original stock, Black Floyd had a small blob of white snot (and at that point I had no idea that indicated "P"), but I never saw snot again. However, less than a year later, I had to cull him due to an enormous abscess.
 
I haven't yet. I have to get to the feed store and get the needles and syringes. I will probably only do my breeders at this point and some of them are still fairly young. I also wanted them to get used to the warmer temps first vs first heat of the summer and stress of a shot plus it is tattoo time.
 
Apparently sub cutaneous (SC) offers better immunity than intra-nasal (IN)
IgG activity was significantly greater in rabbits vaccinated SC compared with controls or those vaccinated IN. In summary, PTE can be used to stimulate protective immunity to a heterologous strain of P. multocida, with stronger immunity generated by SC than IN vaccination

__________ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:41 pm __________

I cannot find info on the specific strains or sero- types it is effective against.

I am worried it is a cash grab for panicked non-science type breeders and owners who dont realize there are over 40 strains of P in rabbits and only the capsular type 'A' and some 'D' strains are problematic and can cause death. If the vaccine is for type 'B' you are wasting your money as a rabbit can live its whole life with this strain and NEVER have symptoms.
 
Dood":1iy6qog1 said:
I am worried it is a cash grab for panicked non-science type breeders and owners who dont realize there are over 40 strains of P in rabbits and only the capsular type 'A' and some 'D' strains are problematic and can cause death. If the vaccine is for type 'B' you are wasting your money as a rabbit can live its whole life with this strain and NEVER have symptoms.

That's a good point. I lean toward being a skeptic as well.

However, the clinical trial suggests that it was a deadly strain, specifically Type A.

Each group was challenged on Day 49 of study with live Pasteurella multocida Strain 1062 (Bovine origin) Type A.

Also, the culture has pretty strong evidence of being a deadly strain and the vaccine has strong evidence of effectiveness.

Prior to conducting the actual Efficacy Study, proof of concept studies for the challenge culture were conducted on several groups of unvaccinated, sero-negative rabbits, in order to evaluate the proper challenge dose. The challenge dose stated in the submitted protocol and referenced article by Chengappa et al, was 1.0- 2.0 x 1010 organisms/ 0.5 dose intranasal. This dose was proven to be too high of a challenge in our model as it resulted in death of 100% of the rabbits challenged. The study was designed to find a dose that would result in disease symptoms in 100% of the rabbits challenged and a mortality rate of +/- 50%.
The studies concluded that a challenge dose of 0.5ml (0.25/ nostril) containing approximately 1x107 organisms total, achieved the type of challenge desired for the study.

And

The vaccine significantly lowered the duration of the disease from a median of 15 days to 9 days. The severity of disease in the vaccinated animals was also lower. Mortality was observed in 60% of the un-vaccinated control group, with none observed in the vaccinated group, therefore the vaccine prevented mortality in 100% of the vaccinated animals.

This is from the Efficacy-Challenge Study sponsored by the Colorado Serum Company March 21, 2011 - May 23, 2011.
 
Just my two cents about vaccines.

Nobody I know of has suffered from or died from Polio. We have vaccines to thank for that.

It is one example of a debilitating, crippling disease that is largely non-existant in North America because of vaccinations.

HOWEVER.

When we vaccinate against anything and everything, as MSD pointed out we aren't neccessarily doing ourselves any good.

These days I think the world over-medicates and over-vaccinates. Got a head cold for example? Take some antibiotics, nevermind the fact that if it's a virus you're doing yourself no earthly good.

Just the other day I was watching the Belmont on TV, and they reported that a horse named Incognito was the only horse running in the race who ISN'T on the diuretic Lasix. FYI, horses are given Lasix (sp?) to prevent them from BLEEDING INTO THEIR LUNGS when they run. Gone are the days when people simply didn't run or breed "bleeders." Now they just medicate the crap out of them and onto the track they go!!!

I don't want that for my rabbits. Would I be crushed if in the future my finest champion with ideal type and coat suddenly blew white snot? HECK YES. I'd be devastated!!! And I'd cull that fine rabbit and say "what a shame" and try to look on the bright side that culling the weak leaves genetically superior animals in it's wake.

I want healthy animals. I do not want to coddle them with a pasturella vaccine. If a rabbit is flawed or exceptionally suceptible to disease, I don't want to propagate that in my lines. Especially since there are so many different strains of pasturella!!! I could spend a small fortune to vaccinate all my rabbits against strain A of the disease........ONLY TO HAVE THEM ALL SUCUMB AND DIE OF STRAIN B, for example.

Yes, rabbits do stress easily and their immune systems falter when stressed. To this end, I'm trying to keep an eye on temperament...calmer rabbits who cope with drastic changes and trips to shows without freaking or acting stressed will help my lines stay healthy. For example, Breezy will stretch out and sleep at a show...she'll gladly take treats and food at a show, she'll drink when thirsty and generally acts docile and calm. Probably all of my future Mini Rex will be related to her. Liz, one of my other MR does, is a skittish thing who freaks at the slightest change and panics over anything. I will be watching her litter closely for temperament, and as soon as I either get a good replacement kit out of her OR decide her temperament is genetic and not caused by being bought/sold repeatedly without much handling, she will be removed from my herd. I see her as a possible health risk...again, I'm hoping she's a nutter because of her situation and not her base personality...time will tell. Also, being bred to a very docile, calm buck helps my odds a little.

Disease resistance is so much more complex than just "shoot 'em up with this vaccine" these days. One of the things I've taken away from my human Anatomy and Physiology class is that we are amazingly complex beings...and our rabbits' bodies are no less amazing. A vaccine isn't a magic bullet. ;)

Am I anti-vaccine? No! If tomorrow there was a deadly virus that swept the nation's rabbits, and a vaccine was made to halt it's progress and make it a thing of the past, I'd be all for it!!! I'd vaccine for sure! But I'd want to know for a fact that we'd stamp the disease out (a la Polio) before vaccinating.

I also know that sometimes, vaccines don't work. My dear kitty, Merlot...he had allergies, an immunity disorder (not disease-caused, his was genetic) and he was vaccinated against EVERYTHING. He contracted feline distemper when he was a year and a month old, and died swiftly even with veterinary care. When I heard his diagnosis I was stunned! He'd been VACCINATED against that! But the vet said that his body was so genetically flawed he couldn't produce the antibodies that would fight the infection. In other words, all the $$ I spent to vaccinate my cat, to protect him, did NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

I miss that delightful cat. He lived such a short life.
 
One thing everyone is missing here.. A HEALTHY IMMUNE system is one that works period! Either it is being challenged by something and it is producing antibodies or it is at rest. Vaccines are tools that CHALLENGE that immune system to produce antibodies. If the immune system is not healthy then it would not work at all and the animal would in all likelihood die of whatever it contracted. It is the immune system itself that does the work not the vaccine. The vaccine just introduces the type of immunity one is looking for. The immune system DOES NOT stop an animal from contracting pasturella. that animal will still get it healthy as well as not. The snot and sneezing is the immune system working to fight that infection. The vaccine is made up of killed/weakened virus that elicits an extra strong response from the immune system.The only way one would know if their rabbits have healthy immune systems would be to have them exposed to a live pasturella infection and see if they live.Having the vaccine would mean a rabbit would fight this off at the get go and not shed live pasturella to everyone else in the barn or at a show or at a new barn when they were sold.When this vaccine becomes widely used and it will be, the economic losses from this very widespread disease will be almost eradicated!Also I do believe this vaccination is made up of several species of pasturella and in most likelihood will evolve as we go along.
 
Thirty years ago, people said some of the same things about the Polio vaccine, but look where we are now. For things to improve, change has to happen. Of course, there may/will be kinks to work out in the beginning, as with everything new, but I believe it is in our best interest as rabbit keepers and breeders to look into this. We're always complaining and stressing about Pasteurella and it's effects, but then when there's a possible solution, everyone turns their back on it, afraid of change. Think of all the 4H and FFA kids of future generations who wouldn't have to worry about their pride and joy catching a lethal disease every time they go to a show.
 
This is all very interesting. I'm not ready to pump my buns full of anything, but when I posted on FB about the Choco angora with the snot, it was suggested that giving her the vaccine would clear that up.Besides occasional snot, she's not the least bit sick, and I have on seen snot on days above 80f. They tried to make it seem like a cure. I don't quite believe that, but I do wonder if it would be enough for her to live her life outside as a Wooler.
 
when I posted on FB about the Choco angora with the snot, it was suggested that giving her the vaccine would clear that up
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

NEVER vaccinate a sick animal EVER!

Great, another thing to worry about - people treating vaccines like antibiotics and making things worse.
 
They say that you can never "cure" P because of how it stays in the nasal system. I'm curious, what if you treated with antibiotics and got the animals "cured". It still carries it in the nasal cavity. What about vaccinating that animal?
 
If you step on a nail the hospital doesn't care if you are sick, they give you a tetnus shot. It helps to stimulate your immune system to fight it off.

THe vaccine has not been tested for use in sick animals. However a few breeders on the FB group have used it on rabbits that are sneezing and/or snot. So far it has had a good percentage of success. I've been following the FB page and it is very interesting.

I think if I had a fantastic rabbit who had snot and my choice was to either use a vaccine that wasn't tested in that capacity or to cull the rabbit, I would use the vaccine and see what happens. It certainly can not do harm at that point. Keep the rabbit in quarantine, use all precautions to keep the rest of the herd safe and see what happens.
 
Hello, Bob Glass from Pan American Vet Labs here. We are the company that is introducing BunnyVac, the USDA licensed vaccine for Pasteurella in rabbits. I am available to answer any questions (if there are answers) anyone may have about this product. I have contacted the administrators to see how to post some documentation that will help to explain more about the product. as an overview, let me say:
1) this product is new and while we have done extensive research and studies we do not have all the answers about how it will work in each herd
2) I will make these guarantees; It is not perfect and it will not protect every rabbit from Pasteurella
3) the product is a killed suspension of a strain of Pasteurella multocida (Pm) from the "respiratory group" of Pm
4) the product is licensed as a biologic product that is able to "help in the prevention of Pasteurella infection in Rabbits"
I will post more information later...time to feed the rabbits now.
 
If you step on a nail the hospital doesn't care if you are sick, they give you a tetnus shot. It helps to stimulate your immune system to fight it off.
If you just stepped on a nail then you ARE NOT sick with tetanus. If you came in with a festering wound and/or muscles spasms because you stepped on a nail a week ago they wouldn't dare give you a tetanus shot.

If you have a rabbit shooting snot it has an ACTIVE long term infection that may or may not be pasturella and giving an immuno compromised animal one more infection to fight - from the killed vaccine - could push them over the edge.
 
Dood":5eerfzl5 said:
If you just stepped on a nail then you ARE NOT sick with tetanus. If you came in with a festering wound and/or muscles spasms because you stepped on a nail a week ago they wouldn't dare give you a tetanus shot.

If you have a rabbit shooting snot it has an ACTIVE long term infection that may or may not be pasturella and giving an immuno compromised animal one more infection to fight - from the killed vaccine - could push them over the edge.

That's not universally true. For instance, the Rabies Vaccine is a killed virus that's given post exposure. The vaccine helps the immune system recognize the infection and respond quicker than it would without the vaccine.

This seems similar, although with Rabies, virtually 100% of exposed individuals die without the vaccine. The rabbits seem to fair better from Pasteurella.

<edit> And welcome aboard, Bob! I'm glad you could make it. </edit>
 
Dood":36gzt4km said:
when I posted on FB about the Choco angora with the snot, it was suggested that giving her the vaccine would clear that up
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

NEVER vaccinate a sick animal EVER!

Great, another thing to worry about - people treating vaccines like antibiotics and making things worse.
That's what makes me Leary about the whole thing. The attitude is yeah, let's jump on this stuff like it's the best thing since sliced bread. They seemed real upset that I said I would not give it a try. Seriously, I just don't think it wise.

If everyone wants to let their buns be the crash test bunny, go ahead. I go to shows, take newborn kits to school, and I usually don't get sick animals.

__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:01 am __________

TMTex":36gzt4km said:
Dood":36gzt4km said:
If you just stepped on a nail then you ARE NOT sick with tetanus. If you came in with a festering wound and/or muscles spasms because you stepped on a nail a week ago they wouldn't dare give you a tetanus shot.

If you have a rabbit shooting snot it has an ACTIVE long term infection that may or may not be pasturella and giving an immuno compromised animal one more infection to fight - from the killed vaccine - could push them over the edge.

That's not universally true. For instance, the Rabies Vaccine is a killed virus that's given post exposure. The vaccine helps the immune system recognize the infection and respond quicker than it would without the vaccine.

This seems similar, although with Rabies, virtually 100% of exposed individuals die without the vaccine. The rabbits seem to fair better from Pasteurella.

<edit> And welcome aboard, Bob! I'm glad you could make it. </edit>


I'm thinking, if this doe is eating, drinking and still blowing snot occasionally, her immune system has already been exposed, is or is not already fighting it, so how would a killed virus vaccine help when she's already been living with the live virus? Just masking symptoms is not useful if a bun is still contagious.

My big question is how long can she live like this? If the evidence shows that the virus can't live outside of a host past 24hrs (as stated in the article MSD posted) then she can live a separate life outside of the barn.
 
I too haven't had a problem with P and I do small scale are rescue and rehab.

Even as a kid, when I took in any old bunny that needed a home and plopped them in the colony, I rarely had issues with adults. But once I started breeding and got a case of nest box eye I did some research, changed my ways, became more selective in who I accepted and those then went through a quarantine protocol.<br /><br />__________ Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:14 am __________<br /><br />
That's not universally true. For instance, the Rabies Vaccine is a killed virus that's given post exposure.
You are missing the timing factor. If you are bit by an animal of unknown history they shoot you up immediately, they don't wait a week or so to see. A rabbit ALREADY SHOWING SIGNS of infection has missed the window of opportunity to 'nip it in the bud'.

I can see the vaccine working as a preventative (before a show, in weaned kits, new arrivals) but NOT in an already ill animal.
 
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