(UPDATE) Any Tips for Dwarf Babies?

[TF3]

Update in last post!

My daughter's Holland Lop 'Coco' is due Thursday.
Her first litter and she is nesting right on schedule.
Given our losses last week (17 kits and a doe!) my daughter has been praying every night at supper and bedtime for Coco and her babies to be ok. :in_love:

Are there any special tips or needs?
Our temps are moderate, so not a concern at present.

And just how small are Holland kits?!
We have had Flemish cross babies and now a couple tiny litters with huge meat chunkers!

Thanks!

 

[akane]

Dwarf kits will be a bit over the length of your finger. Netherlands shortly after opening eyes


A little over 3 weeks.


I had trouble weaning and selling some of my first ones at a normal age because they still look so utterly tiny at 8 weeks and even 12weeks. :lol: Sadly there is very high risk of losing first time litters to Holland and Netherland parents. Quite frequently the kits just do not fit the first time around and the does have to pull them resulting in dead kits or kits that need put down. I am always just happy if a first time doe survives to try to have a live litter the next time around. It's more of a problem with some lines than others. I had a horrible group of netherlands for awhile that were better show quality but kits were weak, small, deformed, and I had peanuts and max factors sometimes taking up entire litters. I replaced 90% of the bloodlines with new again and I had none of those problems. I did lose one first time doe of the new lines but otherwise I've had healthy litters of 3-5, one time 6, with no peanuts or deformities and only one death and they are still the correct size for show. You can breed dwarf rabbits without all the genetic crap that people expect to find. It can be bred out and still produced dwarf size rabbits.

 

[ZachsRabbits]

TF3,
First time mothers do not do well their with litters. I wouldn't get your hopes up. First time moms are often clumsy and lose their litter but you might have a doe that is a natural. If Coco does lose her kits breed her right after the last kit is lost she will be really fertile. All you can do is hope for the best. They usually get it right on the second try. Best Wishes

 

[skysthelimit]

I have not had many problems with the JW. The hollands were a beast to get bred, except Patriot, who always had litters of 5-7, cared for and weaned them all from the start. No peanuts or other weird things. I've been pretty success with first time does as well. The kits are usually not that much smaller than those of my other breeds (consider too that the larger breeds have litters of 9-11, so they don't have gigantic kits).
If I do one thing differently, I keep them with the dam longer. After the whole plague scare, everyone is with their dams longer.

 

[TF3]

Yikes! I am glad I asked!
We had a talk this morning about it, and she understands the risks of losing the litter, although she doesn't want to think about losing Coco, so I didn't stress her about that (she is on meds for her anxiety... so we choose carefully what we share!).

And akane they are bigger than I expected! which is good!

 

[Zass]

TF3,
First time mothers do not do well their with litters. I wouldn't get your hopes up. First time moms are often clumsy and lose their litter but you might have a doe that is a natural.

I keep hearing this, and I don't believe it to be true at all.

I believe it's much more common for first timers to fail in dwarf types than standard sized rabbits, and that a lot of new breeders start with new rabbits, bringing the numbers with first time fails up.

I must have had at least 15 or 20 first time does now, mostly meat mutts, silver fox, and a harlequin and have still never had one fail to make a nest where she was supposed to, pull hair, or feed the babies.

I've never lost a litter to a first time doe, so far 100% of my does have been "naturals."

Hmm...I think there are more factors involved with doe success then just whether or not it's the does first litter though.

And I suppose it's really irrelevant when it comes to dwarf breeds, because they are somewhat different from standard sized ones.

Probably best not to get her hopes up.

I have not had many problems with the JW. The hollands were a beast to get bred, except Patriot, who always had litters of 5-7, cared for and weaned them all from the start. No peanuts or other weird things. I've been pretty success with first time does as well. The kits are usually not that much smaller than those of my other breeds (consider too that the larger breeds have litters of 9-11, so they don't have gigantic kits).
If I do one thing differently, I keep them with the dam longer. After the whole plague scare, everyone is with their dams longer.

Plague scare?? :shock: Please, tell me more about this? Why is staying with the dam longer better in a plague scare? (Boosted immune system or maybe increased protection from rats?)

I wean later too. Never removing kits from does before 6 weeks, and preferring 8 for the doelings. It just seems that with many other animals, early separation from their mother results in poor mothering skills, so why not leave the buns together as long as I can?
Something like that, no proof it's actually related, and I think, condition at breeding is a bigger factor. Too much fat complicates things, and rabbits free fed pellets up to 7 or 8 months often have too much fat.

I'd think forage fed rabbits would want bred a little later, and would do just fine. But...it's all just theories, and everyone's theories are different. :lol:

 

[TF3]

Interesting, Zass.

More people starting with and breeding dwarfs would raise the perception of failures...
I also guess that while many new breeders and farmers may access the Internet, I bet more pet people do so than farmers of standard sized /meat breeds.

But doe size, peanuts and other issues *could* also be more prevalent/exclusive to these breeds.

I know we have been blessed by our first doe to kindle (FG Cross) being awesome-- we would have been helpless if she hadn't been!

 

[akane]

Meat breeds and giant breeds tend to have an easy time giving birth and not fail at their first litter. It seems the smaller you go the greater the failure rate of a first litter you have. That may not all be a physical problem but that people tend to ignore production traits more in the small breeds. If it fails at the first litter or 2 it often isn't counted against the rabbit because the litters usually aren't needed just inconvenient. When you are just getting a few litters for juniors to show, pet sales, or replacements after you showed a rabbit as a senior as much as you want selecting for lots of healthy, live litters every litter is not so important.

 

[CochinBrahmaLover]

I disagree rabbits free fed pellets tend to have too much fat. Maybe if you live somewhere very warm or never let them out for exercise, but ATM we free feed everyone all year and some I need to put weight on still.. Pellets become boring after a bit and they'll gladly accept hay, fresh foods etc over them.

Then again, our winters are very cold & long.

Our first time moms did fine... Sort of. Built a nest, but the babies didn't necessarily make it in there. Our first for gave birth in the house & built a nest consisting of carpet & fur. The babies were all there and happy and she fed them, but she'd sit there and just groom them. Never ate anything or hurt them, but she uncovered them & theyd chill to death & freeze.

The second doe did a WONDERFUL job, but only 1 baby made it into the nest. She nursed perfectly fine though and didn't chill them or anything. Never had a second litter, she was eaten.

Second time she did awesome, pulled a great nest, but the babies unfourtanelty didn't make it (can't really remember why, there was an issue with back to back breeding and everything.)

By the time she had a planned, well organized breeding she made a good nest, fed them and only lost 2 baby and it looked like he crawled out.

These were holland lops.

 

[akane]

Most rabbits free fed do get too fat. It would depend on breed, breeding, cages, environment, pellet brand, if you are feeding them other tasty items that are lower in fat... but overall most breeds in most of the US will eventually get too fat with free feeding pellets. We had an exception with 12x12' colonies for them to exercise. I actually had trouble showing because my rabbits exercised so much they were very lean and had nothing but muscle on them. They were actually healthier and probably even more muscled than the heavily fed caged rabbits but they didn't look as plump so none of the commercial breeds or mini rex did well at a show.

 

[Zass]

I disagree rabbits free fed pellets tend to have too much fat. Maybe if you live somewhere very warm or never let them out for exercise

Yeah, there is a lot of variation between pellet brands, climates, and between lines of rabbits.

I have 24x48 inch pens for medium-large sized rabbits. They do have ledges for jumping on, but I don't let them out to exercise.

It's NE PA, so it isn't exactly someplace warm. I believe it's 63 degrees F right now. On a july evening. I actually think PA weather is pretty ideal for rabbits year round, which might be worse than someplace warm. Since extreme heat limits appetite.

With the manna pro(sho, gro,and pro) and Purina complete pellets (the only brands I have experience with) free feeding can cause a lot of built up internal fat by only 12 weeks old.

Even free feeding grass hay alongside the pellets and limiting pellets for bucks, growouts over 10 weeks, and dry does, I still struggle to keep the extra fat off mine.

 

[TF3]

Meat breeds and giant breeds tend to have an easy time giving birth and not fail at their first litter. It seems the smaller you go the greater the failure rate of a first litter you have. That may not all be a physical problem but that people tend to ignore production traits more in the small breeds. If it fails at the first litter or 2 it often isn't counted against the rabbit because the litters usually aren't needed just inconvenient. When you are just getting a few litters for juniors to show, pet sales, or replacements after you showed a rabbit as a senior as much as you want selecting for lots of healthy, live litters every litter is not so important.

Good points! Production doesn't mean the same thing in a pet breed.
I'm really ok if it doesn't go well.. my daughter is on the fence, we have talked a lot about some of the issues with pets (poor care. excess population etc) and she is leaning towards letting them go (we'll see how the market is for kits) in favour of the bigger guys.

Interesting re. pellets.
I do pellets and hay, but limited pellets for almost everyone but the little guys and nursing moms.
I've got everyone fairly slim and only struggle to keep my Cali buck and my NZW/Satin cross doe from fattening up.
I'm still getting used to how my SR feel~ they *look* chubby but feel alright!

 

[CochinBrahmaLover]

I disagree rabbits free fed pellets tend to have too much fat. Maybe if you live somewhere very warm or never let them out for exercise

Yeah, there is a lot of variation between pellet brands, climates, and between lines of rabbits.

I have 24x48 inch pens for medium-large sized rabbits. They do have ledges for jumping on, but I don't let them out to exercise.

It's NE PA, so it isn't exactly someplace warm. I believe it's 63 degrees F right now. On a july evening. I actually think PA weather is pretty ideal for rabbits year round, which might be worse than someplace warm. Since extreme heat limits appetite.

With the manna pro(sho, gro,and pro) and Purina complete pellets (the only brands I have experience with) free feeding can cause a lot of built up internal fat by only 12 weeks old.

Even free feeding grass hay alongside the pellets and limiting pellets for bucks, growouts over 10 weeks, and dry does, I still struggle to keep the extra fat off mine.

Oh yeah, the protein % affects a lot too. Haha

Well I live in Alaska.. So during the winter we get everywhere from 20F to -60F depending on the month. During the summer we get occasionally temps as high as 90 but usually not much higher than 80f

What's the % for yours? We just use the generic brand our feed store carries. It is 18% protein. Like I said, haven't had issues with fat, but that could also be cause it's winter 8 months a year here.. Or seems like it sometimes lol.

Our cages are 24x24 to 32x36 depending, with one being 3' x 2' or so. But I also let them out during the yard - 15' x 50' - for them to exercise & exhibit more of their natural behaviors like digging, burrowing & cuddling

 

[akane]

I saw no difference between 16% and 18% pellets. We have used both of multiple brands. I would keep getting the 18% version of manna pro but the feed stores keep not carrying it for periods of time so we just feed the 16%. Like I said we see no difference so it doesn't really matter. Other breeders of ND have said they need 18%.

 

[Zass]

I have 16% protein purina pellets right now. According to charts online, it's alse lower in dietary fat than is ideal for pet bunnies.

Not my favorite ingredient list, but I've yet to find anything in driving range with better quality control and consistency. So anyway..

I've noticed that rabbit pellet bags, webpages, and comparison charts rarely, if ever, mention sugar or carbohydrate calories.
But rabbits definitely can make use of that type of energy, and ingredients like wheat or oats, other grains, corn, and molasses must have some sugar and carbohydrates.

My theory is that my feed is high in sugars/carbs, and that is what gives it it's fat adding ability.

 

[TF3]

Coco gave birth today
She made a nice nest, pulled fur.
One living and fat tummy.
2 dead-- one looked fine but was apart from the other two.
The second one looked stretched and banged up and was under the living one.
Mama is still nesting, and I'm just going to let her have a go at it without interfering.

 

[skysthelimit]

Plague scare?? :shock: Please, tell me more about this? Why is staying with the dam longer better in a plague scare? (Boosted immune system or maybe increased protection from rats?)

I had a round with whatever was causing all my weanlings to die a few years ago. Picked it up after a show. It was going around something fierce for a while, speculation was a Corrid resistant strain of Cocci, and/or bacterial enteritis, depending on what symptoms the breeders saw.

I noticed right off hand, that the kits didn't get sick until they were without the doe. I only lost a few adults, and those were from the new buns I took in from the other breeder. As long as they were together, they were fine. So I started leaving them with does for 10-12 weeks or longer, depending on breed and size of litter. Most likely gut flora from the dam. <br /><br /> -- Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:54 am -- <br /><br /> My Rex will get fat, real fast. After they reach jr weight I stop free feeding.

Not at all the same problem with the JW. They leave most of their food in the feeder.

Angoras eat all the time, but they need it for the coats.