Tort vs Cinnamon

[TerriG]

We bought this doe from a Palomino breeder. She obviously has some different coloring than the Palominos. The breeder referred to her as a Palomino with points. She also breeds a black line. She stated that they have checkered giant and silver marten in the line. They also carry the satin gene even though the buck we have doesn't express it.

As I started researching genetics, I happened upon the Cinnamon breed pictured. I though some of the breedings resulted in a Cinnamon. Here she is

As I have posted her picture her, some have suggested that she is a Tort. I started looking into that. Now I am even more confused. Here is a thread from RT that says the Cinnamons are basically just giant Torts.
tort-rabbit-pictures-t2947.html

Does it even matter? Is it semantics? These are meat rabbits, but genetics interest me. I love trying to figure things out. My son wants to tan their pelts, so their coloring is a secondary value. Here is her current (and first) litter. They were born on 11-28-12. She was bred with our Palomino buck.

 

[Secuono]

I don't see the dark points on her like the breed shows. Maybe a poor Cin coloring, but right now I would be calling her black tort...

 

[skysthelimit]

Black tort. She looks like a lop whose ears haven't fallen.

 

[TerriG]

Black tort. She looks like a lop whose ears haven't fallen.

She's not a lop. No lops on the property at all. Don't know if that was what you meant, or if I misunderstood.

 

[skysthelimit]

Black tort. She looks like a lop whose ears haven't fallen.

She's not a lop. No lops on the property at all. Don't know if that was what you meant, or if I misunderstood.

No just the usual tort color you see on lops. Reminds me of my lop whose ears haven fallen. Though if the ears hadn't fallen, would you know it was a lop and not a Cinnamon?

Does the breeder have Cinnamons ? Then that would pretty much sum it up. Either a Cinnamon or Cinnamon cross, regardless of what you classify the color as.

 

[Nyctra]

Isn't Cinnamon a breed and tort a color?

 

[skysthelimit]

Isn't Cinnamon a breed and tort a color?

Yes, but cinnamons color looks a lot like tort. like american chin and the chin color.

 

[TerriG]

Does the breeder have Cinnamons ? Then that would pretty much sum it up. Either a Cinnamon or Cinnamon cross, regardless of what you classify the color as.

She does not, but she does have Checkered Giant and Californian for sure. Not sure on the NZ.

I looked up more on the Cinnamon breed. Here is how it started:
Chinchilla doe+New Zealand buck=Crossbred buck
Crossbred buck+Checkered Giant doe=2 russet colored buns (one buck, one doe)
The buck and doe were bred and this started the Cinnamon breed

The breeder is a meat breeder that sells off enough stock to pay for supplies and fc's the rest. She doesn't show. She cross breeds to get better mothers, bigger litters, etc, not for show qualities. In my mind, it isn't beyond reason to think she could have ended up with a cross that resulted in a Cinnamon. That was my line of thinking when I started all these questions.

 

[skysthelimit]

. She cross breeds to get better mothers, bigger litters, etc, not for show qualities.

What do you think show breeders breed for? The best show animal with great looks is worthless if it can't produce and rear young.

 

[TerriG]

. She cross breeds to get better mothers, bigger litters, etc, not for show qualities.

What do you think show breeders breed for? The best show animal with gret looks is worthless if it can't produce and rear young.

I'm sorry. I just meant that she isn't breeding them for their coats or to stay true to a certain breed.

 

[skysthelimit]

Meat qualities, milking ability and litter size are of the utmost importance in a meat rabbit. One of the things breeding a pure rabbit gives you is a predictability in temperament, growth rate, litter size, adult weight and coat color. If breeding for color is not important, then it doesn't really matter what this does true color is. Wanting to make more of a particular color (or quality) we like is how purebreds got started.

 

[TerriG]

I was just trying to figure out for my own knowledge so that I have more predictable results. Right now, each litter is a surprise while we are still trying to figure out what our stock carries.

 

[skysthelimit]

When color genes are mixed, it's very complicated. After several litters you will be able to flesh out the recessive genes. Right now, you should read some of the primers on genetics, and pour over the pedigrees, which is something I love to do. Then I make charts of who is related and which buns carry what colors, based on peds and what they have produced. But the work is halfway done for me because I breed within acceptable colors.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

A rabbit's colour does not make it a certain "Breed". Colour is totally separate. Yes Purebreds have certain colours but that is only the "Frosting on the Cake". There is an entire "cake" under that "frosting". A better rule to follow is "form to function" and to ignore the colour completely, especially if one is breeding for meat and not for judging. I find it interesting that an entire breed was started with the Chinchilla gene which would suppress the wanted colour in the first place! Cinnamons are large Tort-coloured rabbits, starting with agouti and broken genes to boot as well as chin genes are everything a Cinammon is not!