The Loneliest Agouti

[skip]

Hello, I've been reading and keeping rabbits for three years off and on but never had a conundrum worth posting about. Over the last three days that's all changed! Everything I thought I knew about genetics and the genetics of my current herd has been turned on its head.

The two main actors in this drama are my (pedigreed) SF buck, Bucky, and a SF doe of questionable and mysterious ancestry. The doe came to me proven and bred, but failed to deliver that first litter. She was re-bred by Bucky on 3/15, and right on schedule, five days ago she delivered a single whopping silvery/bluey kit. It was delivered outside the nest and I found it dead. Needless to say, I considered this strike two and three in one, and the doe was slated for Easter dinner. I just bought extra feed for a pellet transition, so storage being tight I went ahead and left the nest in with her. Three days later, that's 4/18, I found the box poppin' and roiling with kits. Yesterday I went out and did a head count, and she's got four small, live, well formed and healthy kits in there. Will wonders never cease?

NO THEY WON'T!

Mysterious origins aside, these kits posed another riddle. Three (or four, counting the dead early bird) are that slate blue/silver/black color. I'd call it black if it weren't just slightly off compared to the self black kits of other litters. The last kit is agouti. Chestnut. Wild type. Patterned. Call it whatever, I can't wrap my head around it. This is Bucky's third litter with me, by three different does. Litter one is eight kits, four black, four blue, four broken and four solid. Litter two is seven kits, all a rich self black. Litter three, out of the SF doe, is destroying everything I thought I had discovered about Bucky and my REW does' genes.


A rabbit cannot hide agouti, right? A very silvered silver fox could hide all kinds of things, I guess, but none of them manifested in the first two litters with REW does. I've got 20 kits total to count, and one single stinkin' agouti among them. Who did this? Where did it come from? Obviously either the SF doe or SF buck are not actually black, but which is more likely, and which color is it most likely they actually are, and which do they carry? I'd had hypothetical genotypes written out for each rabbit, but this lone agouti really messes with all of them. I'm growing out the kits who aren't NZW mutts for fur, so colors are semi-important and I'd like to get a handle on what I'm dealing with. I need to decide if I need to buy a new SF buck or doe going forward. I had initially planned to simply hold on to a doe or two from the current SF litter, but I'd like to at least know what that could lead to. Help?

 

[dayna]

Man that buck is cute! I don't know anything about genetics though....

 

[Zass]

Welcome to RT!

I think you buck looks a lot like a champagne d'argent rabbit. The doe is super lightly silvered but her face looks like a SF to me.

I don't know anything about that slate color. My own SF kits are born looking self black.

I do have to say that I'm kinda shocked to see an agouti instead of a steel!

Out of curiosity, do you know how much your buns weigh?

 

[skip]

Maybe it's steel? I have no idea. I didn't think I'd need to read up on agouti or steel too much, having never owned or bred for either, so they're total blind spots for me. How do I tell a steel? I read your whole thread and I think I learned a thing or two there, but I didn't want to hijack it with this. After going through your story I halfway convinced myself Bucky is a silver tipped steel (is that a thing?), but I have no idea how the testing for steel works out with a slightly different buck and doe combination.

I previously bred chamagnes to Californians, and those kits were all nice self blacks like yours that silvered with age. Bucky looks very Champagne to me, too, but everybody and their dog claims to be breeding silver foxes around here, and I'm pretty sure I ate the last real champagne in town two years ago. I haven't seen his pedigree since March madness, and I'm starting to think someone threw it away because it looked like the stupidest bracket ever. It had a lot of black and a little blue going back about a million years, but no mention of any champagnes.

I haven't weighed any of them, I just compare heft and firmness when I move them. It needs to get done though, so I'll add that to tomorrow's list. The SF doe is definitely the smallest by a mile, Bucky and the NZWs have all got a couple pounds and a couple of inches on her.

 

[skysthelimit]

Hello there.

I wonder why you haven't posted sooner, we like small talk here too, not just emergernies and questions. Have a cup of :coffeebath: and socialize.

Anyway, I would go out on a limb and say that buck is not a Silver Fox.

The doe is closer, but she's kind of small.

It's completely possible to look just like a Silver Fox, and not be a pure Silver Fox. I have an experimental group of SFx Angoras, and they both look like SF especially the blue. If I was that type of person, I could pass her off as one (I'm not)


I would say if the kit is from Bucky and the Sf like doe, the Steel gene is definitely at work, because that is definitely an agouti kit.

 

[Dood]

The "chestnut" kit in Picture #7 is a gold tipped steel (chestnut steel) but as he only got one of the genes he retains the typical agouti pattern, just darker.

Since agouti is dominant to self and the majority of your kits from Bucky are self, I believe the doe is not self black but is a chestnut with two steel genes that make her look like a self black.

She may not even be silvered :shrug: and the white hairs are just that -stray white hairs BUT if she gets more with each moult then I'd say she's silvered.

Bucky is a very heavily silvered rabbit which leads me to believe he is a Champagne d'Argent and not a silver fox. Also his fur doesn't seem to be the right length or texture for a SF but this is difficult to tell from pictures

 

[skip]

It's totally within the realm of possibility that neither are silver foxes, just about everyone selling rabbits here is "that type of person." Bucky does seriously look like a champagne d'argent, but at the same time his fur is long and stands up nicely when you pet him backwards. He's either a SF with the wrong colors or a Champagne with the wrong fur type. Since those are about my two favorite kinds of rabbits I'm not gonna complain about this minor flaw

So, if mum is a super mega steel, and only one kit of five from her is agouti, I write her up as having a single agouti gene and two steels? I can assume that any of the three self kits from this litter are self whatever color they turn out to be, but assume they'll all carry steel? I'm guessing the doe is old, and the white you see now is probably as "silvered" as she'll ever get. It'll be interesting to see how these kits progress. It'll also be interesting to see what the next "silver fox" doe I look at turns out to be, cuz this girl is outta here!

Thank you so much for the theories and explanation, and I promise I'll stick around and socialize. Lord knows I read the forum enough to post more than once a lifetime :lol:

 

[Dood]

Many self based meat breeds secretly carry steel but you only notice when you cross to an agouti or a REW or himilayan that is genetically an agouti.

In breeds that only accept self colours the steel gene is not a big deal and actually might be unintentionally selected for since my steels are almost always bigger than the chestnuts and chinchillas

The down side is super steels masquerading as selfs

 

[Zass]

The easiest way to tell agouti VS steel is belly color. A steel will never have a really white belly. (si silvering, stray white hairs, dutch marks, broken pattern and other white marks are totally unaffected by steel)
Silver tipped steel is a chinchilla coat with at least one steel gene. It actually looks a lot more metallic silver than a SF silvering.
I don't think Bucky is one. If he had that (hidden by all the si silvering?) He could have thrown chinchilla or more silver tipped steels with your rew does.

If he is a silverfox, it's from lines where someone thought they would improve things with a bit of champagne blood...and may have just left that bit off the pedigree, or it happened 4+ generations ago.
He's still a beautiful rabbit <3

My own intuition is suspecting the doe is the masked steel.
If for some reason your agouti kit is really an agouti and not a steel,
It's possible your hidden steel rabbit might have one copy of the steel gene and one of non-extension (or some other unknown factor, like extension dark) making it look like a black when it isn't.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Hi Skip!

All of this genetic stuff makes my head spin around :baby04: , but I wanted to say welcome to RT!

I'm glad you finally decided to join us!

:welcomewagon:

Bucky is adorable, whatever he is! He looks like quite a character.

Congratulations on the litters. They sure are a colorful bunch!

 

[skip]

If he is a silverfox, it's from lines where someone thought they would improve things with a bit of champagne blood...and may have just left that bit off the pedigree, or it happened 4+ generations ago.
He's still a beautiful rabbit <3

My own intuition is suspecting the doe is the masked steel.
If for some reason your agouti kit is really an agouti and not a steel,
It's possible your hidden steel rabbit might have one copy of the steel gene and one of non-extension (or some other unknown factor, like extension dark) making it look like a black when it isn't.

I think you guys are right. I'm still very confused about the statistical spread of colors in this doe's litter, but I'm willing to believe that if I kept her and bred her three more times it would all average out.

More magic happened as soon as I posted this thread. A very nice couple out in farm country that I bought a red satin buck from a couple of months ago just posted a silver fox litter. I've been out there and looked over the parents already, and actually turned down purchasing their doe because I wanted to see how mine worked out. I'll call them up and buy two black kits, or their doe if they'd still like her out. Half her kits are blue, so I'd really REALLY like to get my hands on her, since Bucky carries blue as well.

Thank you all for your help, it's such a relief to know it's the doe and not the buck who needs to be replaced. Bucky is a joy to own and visit with, this doe is the one rabbit in my herd who just bums me out. She's skittish, a corner sulker, a bad mom, small, and just generally makes me feel like a terrible person whenever I distribute the treats. It's going to be nice to free her cage up and give a couple new buns a chance at being spoiled rotten.

 

[skysthelimit]

If your intention is to raise pure Silver Fox, neither one is going to be useful. I have stand up fur on the Angora cross kits, but I would not add them back into the SF gene pool.

If not, I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Zass]

The extension dark stuff is just speculation on my part. I know I've gotten masked steels who could only possibly be carrying one copy of steel. I never kept them to test for non-extension. Haven't had any pop up from the same lines yet...but that doesn't make it impossible.

What I'm saying is that there are still a few unknown or not well understood factors that work along with steel genes. Keeps us breeders on our toes

 

[skip]

If your intention is to raise pure Silver Fox, neither one is going to be useful. I have stand up fur on the Angora cross kits, but I would not add them back into the SF gene pool.

If not, I wouldn't worry too much.

I might check the county fair for real Silver Fox this fall, but until then there isn't much rabbit show action around these parts, and no real hope of finding "pure" Silver Fox. A few years ago there were a lot of Champagnes around because a breeder sold out. Today I'd say 75% of the rabbits on craigslist (minis aside) are alleged "silver fox" rabbits. I feel strongly that these two facts are connected. I wouldn't pass these offspring off as "real" Silver Fox, but I do think that calling them something like "silver fox type" is a good way to quickly explain they've got silvering, rollback fur, and a bit of heft on them. Since I'm not showing these I feel ok breeding for the *traits* of Silver Fox even if I can't obtain real stock. I certainly will not be passing them off as the real deal though, and I'm not going to ask purebred prices for mutts like these. Like I said, the market is totally flooded with fake silver fox. I gain no advantage by claiming to have purebreds, and hopefully I'll build better relationships with customers by being honest in my assessment of the kits.

Anyhoo, I'll be sure to post a couple of progress pics as these kits grow. Today they've switched colors again, two are solid self blacks and one is more of a slate. The mysterious steel kit is browner on top, whiter on the bottom. You're totally right, Zass. I can't keep any of them, but I love being kept on my toes by what they'll show next

 

[Zass]

the market is totally flooded with fake silver fox

Yeah. I suspect true heritage SF are indeed as rare as they are written up to be, and keeping lines pure these days...next to impossible. I would have to be able to find genetically pure SF in the first place...then...find more to cross them with. I'm tired of paying $50+ each for rabbits that may or may not have any kind of purity and often have horrible traits and lots of undesirable recessive genes.
I'd happily pay that much if they at least preformed on a basic meat rabbit level, but too many are simply show rabbits instead of meat rabbits. From my experience, show breeders who don't eat or sell rabbit meat (or have another outlet) tend to tolerate WAY too much behavioral nonsense, and mostly just worry about SOP. (Obviously, not everyone is like this, but it's a hazard to be aware of when your in the market for meat buns!)
Those spoiled show type rabbits are just too frustrating to deal with when my meat mutts out preform them on every level. :roll: Of course I rarely sell the mutts and can't show them, and the kids do like occasionally attending the shows.

Most modern SF seem to be more like re-created "SF type" rabbits. Makes me kinda sad, but then...I don't feel at all bad tossing the pedigrees and playing with the genetics of mine. If I ever sell any, the prices won't be cheap, but it will have nothing to do with breed or purity.
It will be because I've spent years carefully culling good heath, good mothering and temperament, good growth, good fur and hopefully managing to maintain decent type while I'm at it.

Of course, it would take a very good rabbit at this point to convince me that it's worth more sold to someone else, instead of making me a nice dish of stuffed shells with bunny sausage. :twisted:

 

[skysthelimit]

I'd happily pay that much if they at least preformed on a basic meat rabbit level, but too many are simply show rabbits instead of meat rabbits. From my experience, show breeders who don't eat or sell rabbit meat (or have another outlet) tend to tolerate WAY too much behavioral nonsense, and mostly just worry about SOP. (

It's true. I get in trouble because I cull for anything. If's it's not near perfect, I cull. Shoulder too long, head too small, I don't like the way it breathes, it scratched me and I culled it, too too long to grow. I recently culled a doe that would only have 3 kits. I have a buck that digs in his feed. It's only a matter of time before I snatch him up and cull him as well.

I don't believe true heritage SF even exist anymore. So much had been done to preserve the breed, if yo can get something that looks like it, acts like it, grows like it and breeds like it, with a clean 4-6 gen ped, that's the best you will probably be able to do. <br /><br /> __________ Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:25 pm __________ <br /><br />

I might check the county fair for real Silver Fox this fall, but until then there isn't much rabbit show action around these parts, and no real hope of finding "pure" Silver Fox.

You'd be surprised. Last year a SF breeder went all over the country delivering SF and other rabbits to folks. Some RT folks are traveling from out west to Ohio for a show. You might be able to get someone who is going to Convention to Texas, to stop in a major city in Idaho, or any of the various Nationals for different breeds. Rex Nationals is in Col this year, I'm having rabbits brought from there to Ohio.

 

[skip]

Most modern SF seem to be more like re-created "SF type" rabbits. Makes me kinda sad, but then...I don't feel at all bad tossing the pedigrees and playing with the genetics of mine. If I ever sell any, the prices won't be cheap, but it will have nothing to do with breed or purity.
It will be because I've spent years carefully culling good heath, good mothering and temperament, good growth, good fur and hopefully managing to maintain decent type while I'm at it.

Of course, it would take a very good rabbit at this point to convince me that it's worth more sold to someone else, instead of making me a nice dish of stuffed shells with bunny sausage. :twisted:

Amen! And I guess that's what I'm doing here, resigned as I am to not finding the real deal, I'll settle for working towards it. And in the meantime... This doe's name is now Maklouba, because that's the dinner she was supposed to be on Easter, before she magically pulled some rabbits out of her... er... well uh, she pulled it out anyways.

I don't believe true heritage SF even exist anymore. So much had been done to preserve the breed, if yo can get something that looks like it, acts like it, grows like it and breeds like it, with a clean 4-6 gen ped, that's the best you will probably be able to do.

That's sort of my feeling on the matter. I read about how rare they are, their endangered status, I see how few are entered in national shows, and then I check Craigslist and find enough "silver fox" rabbits to feed and dress a small, very fashionable army. I think most of these rabbits are frankly sort of garbage, but a few people must be out there looking for the best, the next best, and the closest thing to rebuild the breed. Mostly I think it's just folks tryin' to score an extra $20 by claiming heritage status.

You'd be surprised. Last year a SF breeder went all over the country delivering SF and other rabbits to folks. Some RT folks are traveling from out west to Ohio for a show. You might be able to get someone who is going to Convention to Texas, to stop in a major city in Idaho, or any of the various Nationals for different breeds. Rex Nationals is in Col this year, I'm having rabbits brought from there to Ohio.

Haha, out west to Ohio! That's not something I hear very often. I'll definitely keep my ear to the ground. I always seem to find my best new stock the day after I settle on something else, so maybe I'll just buy a few in town to guarantee something better comes along If all else fails there's a fella near the state line with a fine barn full of tri-color rexes I've had my eye on a couple months. I've got red satins, it'd be awful fun to play with another fancy fur breed. I love my rainbow herd

 

[Dood]

I don't believe true heritage SF even exist anymore.

Unfortunately I think this is true for a lot of rare breeds and I think showing is only making it worse

My first trio of American Chinchilas were/are butt ugly with long faces and long shoulders, nice rumps though :mrgreen: but I am certain they are purebred as the only recessive they carry is self. They also have AMAZING fertility, mothering qualities and temperaments.

My second pair of American Chinchillas were specifically chosen for showing and they came from a long line of champions BUT they ended up being recessive for self, himilayan, REW and non-extension :shock: PLUS they have bad attitudes and are not very good moms.

I have have gotten rid of that bloodline and have decided to work with what I've got and stick to my gentle and sweet, horse faced :zombiebun: who don't make me want to pull my hair out when they fail to get pregnant or have 2 or 3 runty kits in litter of 8 because their milk production sucks.

 

[Zass]

She's skittish, a corner sulker, a bad mom, small, and just generally makes me feel like a terrible person whenever I distribute the treats.

It is unfortunately also all things rather typical of modern SF does.

I finally have one who's passed the motherhood test...with a smallish litter (only 5!) At least she isn't peeing on them or trampling them in a blind panic.
She's still not as pleasant as my lovable mutts.
She lays down submissively and grunts her frustration at me while I'm playing with her nestbox, and is a bit idiotic about treats. She keeps trying to nip my hand to see if I'll drop them faster. She doesn't draw blood, but it's still a nasty habit. And yeah...that is the BEST SF doe I've been lucky enough to own. The less said about the others...the better.
Fortunately, they do make fine pelts. I'm still more than half tempted to scrap my whole project and lines in favor of better tempered animals.

My buck is a good fella. Easiest rabbit to handle, and all the SF bucks I've seen have been excellent breeders, ha, they probably have to be to deal with those neurotic does!
I've noticed lots of small scale meat raisers keep a SF buck around for a meat stud.

Xerx seems to hybred well with even the 3+ gen mutts.

 

[skip]

Oh god, that's what this doe did after I found the kit on the wire. I reached in to pull it out, she leaped into the nest in a stamping, shaking panic. I hadn't seen if there were any live kits at that point, so I just had to shrug my shoulders and leave for work, all the while wondering if I'd come home to find a smothered litter. The good news was there wasn't a litter. That's the kind of doe she is. :down: And the buck, he's the same kind of sweetheart. HUGE crossbred litters. Persistent, gentle and assertive with does. But if he wasn't so great at workin' the NZW girls I'd scrap SF altogether.

As is, I called up the nice folks with the new SF litter and let them know I've got red satins. Hopefully they'll go for my offer to swap kits, satin for silver fox. They sold out of everything but two bucks, but I've offered to take their doe and asked to hear when they're expecting a new litter. Bucky is the bunny everyone here at the house got attached to, so I want to keep him working for me. I wish I could find a doe worthy of him!