The Line Between Show Rabbits and Pet Rabbits

[RubyRed]

Throughout my reading on rabbits I've discovered that there are 3 main "parts" in the rabbit community.
The first part being the group of pet rabbit owners who strictly follow the House Rabbit Society guidelines for keeping rabbits- who strongly advocate spaying/neutering, rescuing rabbits, feeding veggies, and free roaming- who are also very outspoken when they find people keeping their rabbits differently, such as show breeders keeping their rabbits on wire floored cages, or just people breeding in general.
The second group are the show breeders, who are breeding to better the rabbit breed, and tend not to mingle with the pet community. (to avoid criticism on their rabbit care, I'd presume- things like them using wire cages, not feeding veggies, etc. seem to get lots of criticism from pet owners)
The third group are the meat breeders who breed rabbits for meat purposes. (I personally have no problem with breeding for meat as long as the breeders can handle keeping all their rabbits in fair condition before processing.) They also tend to get a lot of criticism from the pet community because they're not only breeding rabbits (according to some pet owners I know, a big no-no, no matter if it's an experienced breeder breeding for show or some byb breeding mixed breeds) but also eating them.

Focusing specifically on the showing and pet communities, which one is, or is mostly, correct on rabbit care? (how would you recommend caring for a rabbit- the "pet" way or the "show" way?) I've read articles on rabbit care that are like the polar opposites of each other- take this article vs this one. It's confusing at times, especially when you're a newbie trying to figure out proper rabbit care. I've lurked on the Rabbits Online forum for a while- it seemed like a really nice, supporting community, and I still read through old posts sometimes, but when it came to topics such as breeding or wire cages 90% of everyone there didn't seem to support it at all-- being an aspiring show breeder I just felt like RabbitTalk was a better forum for me. I wouldn't be comfortable asking breeding questions or for input on my cages on RabbitsOnline, because it doesn't seem like what the community "accepts".
I've also read every article on the Lotsoflops rabbitry website and it's been super interesting and educational even though I don't plan to breed Holland Lops in the future. I do disagree with some parts, but mostly they have given me a new perspective on things. I really wish there would be more information out there like the articles on Lotsoflops that give different perspectives on keeping rabbits. But it truly could be confusing if you were a newbie, reading conflicting information on a topic. For me, something I'm still not sure about is if offering vegetables do benefit rabbits or not. Show breeders tend not to feed veggies but pet owners certainly do. (see link vs link)

I’d love to hear everyone's opinions

 

[Mutt-Dad]

The major difference between the three groups you mention is scale. I would argue each group is taking the best care they can given their desired outcome.

Pet ownership is one of those things where you get a lot out of it if you put a lot into it. You take great care of your pet and you have a loyal friend for many years. A few people I've sold pet rabbits, have allowed their rabbits to burrow in the yard and graze on grass and live a semi wild pet life. Others are paper trained and kept in a bed room at home. Both are pretty great life styles, but they would never work at the kind of scale you need for meat and show.


Breading for show quality animals is hard work, and its a numbers game. You have to be able to manage dozens of rabbits at one time. If you are just showing for fun, fine just take whatever you have. But if you are showing to win you are probably line breeding pretty intensely looking for those "perfect" genetics.

Breeding for meat (commercially) is a numbers game as well. They want the most meat for the least feed. I dont know of anyone who breeds meat rabbits like this who is giving free advice online, probably because they are too busy working. So the people who are giving advice about breeding for meat are most often a hobby farm or a homestead or something along that line.

Sure feeding fresh hay and grains is the best thing to feed a rabbit, but hay is hard to find in the city so people gravitate to veggies instead. On that diet they grow slowly and that diet isn't going to be cost effective for meat rabbits. In the second article you linked they say 10-15% of the diet should be a very select group of veggies. The first article points to people who are over feeding and feeding the wrong kinds of fresh veggies. Both acknowledge hay and pellets as staples of a rabbits diet, so i would say, even though they seem like they are advocating different diets, the authors would probably be feeding their own rabbits very similar to one another. (I feed my rabbits hay and pellets and throw in grass and weeds as treats. )

Yes some rabbits get sore hocks from wire floors, but when you have 8 kits feeding off mom for 6+ weeks the wire floor is infinitely cleaner than newspaper or carpet on the floor in a spare bedroom.

The reality is, The setup required to house and feed a couple pet rabbits is very different from a setup to house and feed 30 - 1000 "pet" rabbits, if you catch my meaning. The best conditions are those geared toward the best outcome for you and your animals.

I hope that helps and doesn't add to the noise.

 

[bighairbuns]

I kinda come from it on all sides. I have house rabbits that are pets, I keep some in cages, and others in a colony set up. I do some breeding for meat, and I breed and do a limited amount of showing for fiber breeds (I show mostly to get an outside perspective on my rabbits. Don't care so much about winning. I will breed faulted rabbits if their wool is good)

There really is no one "correct" way to keep rabbits. It really depends on what your goals as a rabbit keeper are and what your personal moral beliefs about animal rearing are. There are lots of trade offs in rabbit keeping. The thing is finding which ones work best for you.

All rabbits have the same physiological needs. Food, water, shelter, protection from predators, and a safe and sanitary environment. These are the most important things to have figured out and if you get these right you will have healthy rabbits.

For some people, this is their only concern.

Personally, I want my rabbits to be healthy and happy.

I would argue that to have happy rabbits you also need to meet their psychological needs. Things I would consider psychological needs would include variety in diet, the opportunity to take part in rabbit behaviors such as digging, chewing, and shredding things, places to burrow/hide, social interactions, puzzles/problems to solve, room to roam and run etc.

Domesticated rabbits descend from the wild european rabbit Oryctolagus cuniculus. I do try to look at the behaviors of the wild rabbit as a guideline as to how to feed and provide for my rabbit's psychological needs. With caveats of course. A wild rabbit's diet would not provide nearly enough protein or calories for my flemish giant or angoras for example.

So with wire cages, they meet a rabbit's physiological needs very well. They are sanitary and keep rabbits safe from harm. They are small, but they are awesome for organizing larger amounts of animals. That is a huge plus when breeding for show. Also with showing you need to keep your rabbits in top shape - can't have missing patches of fur or scratches or risk a torn ear. This is much easier to accomplish when they are isolated in their own protective bubbles.

They really aren't the best for meeting a rabbit's psychological needs though. Not a lot of room for hidey holes, or things to do inside them.

I will say that I disagree with the lotsoflops article in regards to caged rabbits being friendlier. IME friendliness is much more dependent on the genetics and early socialization of the rabbit than the type of set up they are kept in. My colony angoras race up to me and will climb into my lap if I sit down.

Diet-wise rabbits need calories, protein, vitamins, trace minerals and fiber. This can be achieved with a quality pellet alone. However, many pellets are low in fiber and rabbits are browsers by nature. They spend all day in the wild just eating. Giving a big handful of hay gives them the long stem fiber they need and gives them something to do.

Veggies aren't *needed* nutrient wise if you have a quality pellet. A rabbit isn't going to die without them but they offer a variety of different flavors and textures which are great for enrichment. They are awesome as a treat for positive reinforcement or positive associations when needing to handle rabbits. My jerk of a buck is much better for grooming when he has a nice leafy stalk of celery for example.

Also, there is a lot about nutrition that we don't know. I will admit I am a little crunchy about this stuff - I feed all natural diets to my pets, I use diet and supplements to control my dog's epilepsy etc. A varied diet can fill in any nutritional gaps that might be missing or maybe give a bit of an "edge" for health. Maybe the antioxidants in the blue berries I give as a treat may help minimize free radicals and keep cancer at bay longer than if they didn't get it. I do see a big difference in wool quality when feeding fresh food high in vitamin E and Omega 3 for another example even though they are on a high quality pellet.

My rabbits get a dish of pellets, a top dressing of supplements, unlimited hay, and a fresh meal of home grown fodder, veggie scraps, and foraged wild plants. I even forage extra in the spring and summer to dry and mix in with their hay for fall and winter.

I keep my does in a colony set up. I keep my bucks and and rabbit that I plan to show in wire cages. I do try to let them out into a run a few times a week for exercise and a change of scenery. I also have a pet rabbit in doors who lives in an x pen and gets let loose into a rabbit proofed room for free range time. All the rabbits I have had have certainly seemed to enjoy having extra space. They run and hop and explore. They binky all over the place.

They get toys rotated throughout the week. Lots of foraging toys and shreddable ones. Everyone in my life saves their empty toilet paper and paper towel rolls for my buns. I spend a night watching a movie and making toys for them each week.

Personally, I like to hear from everyone. The show people. The pet people. The fiber people. The meat people. I take everything with a little bit of salt and just do what resonates best with me.

 

[SoftPawsRabbitry]

Throughout my reading on rabbits I've discovered that there are 3 main "parts" in the rabbit community.
The first part being the group of pet rabbit owners who strictly follow the House Rabbit Society guidelines for keeping rabbits- who strongly advocate spaying/neutering, rescuing rabbits, feeding veggies, and free roaming- who are also very outspoken when they find people keeping their rabbits differently, such as show breeders keeping their rabbits on wire floored cages, or just people breeding in general.
The second group are the show breeders, who are breeding to better the rabbit breed, and tend not to mingle with the pet community. (to avoid criticism on their rabbit care, I'd presume- things like them using wire cages, not feeding veggies, etc. seem to get lots of criticism from pet owners)
The third group are the meat breeders who breed rabbits for meat purposes. (I personally have no problem with breeding for meat as long as the breeders can handle keeping all their rabbits in fair condition before processing.) They also tend to get a lot of criticism from the pet community because they're not only breeding rabbits (according to some pet owners I know, a big no-no, no matter if it's an experienced breeder breeding for show or some byb breeding mixed breeds) but also eating them.

Focusing specifically on the showing and pet communities, which one is, or is mostly, correct on rabbit care? (how would you recommend caring for a rabbit- the "pet" way or the "show" way?) I've read articles on rabbit care that are like the polar opposites of each other- take this article vs this one. It's confusing at times, especially when you're a newbie trying to figure out proper rabbit care. I've lurked on the Rabbits Online forum for a while- it seemed like a really nice, supporting community, and I still read through old posts sometimes, but when it came to topics such as breeding or wire cages 90% of everyone there didn't seem to support it at all-- being an aspiring show breeder I just felt like RabbitTalk was a better forum for me. I wouldn't be comfortable asking breeding questions or for input on my cages on RabbitsOnline, because it doesn't seem like what the community "accepts".
I've also read every article on the Lotsoflops rabbitry website and it's been super interesting and educational even though I don't plan to breed Holland Lops in the future. I do disagree with some parts, but mostly they have given me a new perspective on things. I really wish there would be more information out there like the articles on Lotsoflops that give different perspectives on keeping rabbits. But it truly could be confusing if you were a newbie, reading conflicting information on a topic. For me, something I'm still not sure about is if offering vegetables do benefit rabbits or not. Show breeders tend not to feed veggies but pet owners certainly do. (see link vs link)

I’d love to hear everyone's opinions

To start, your rabbits sound very spoiled! Haha! You sound like a very loving and responsible owner c:

I honestly stopped looking online after a PETA member attacked me for being a breeder c,: my advice for good information is, and this only applies if it's possible, talk to people you heard of or know you can trust who raise bunnies! I have a friend, my rabbit guru, who's shown, done meat, raised pets, but shes super laid back, in the beginning of raising bunnies, I freaked out if I'd accidentally clip a bunnies toenail too short. She taught me so much more than online and saved many rabbits I found on craigslist that werent in the best care! All the while she didnt hate on the people who had the bunny. I also was humbled more than I already have been just by being threatened lol, hope I made sense, if I didn't or seem snooty I apologize!

You also have permission to DM me if you have questions or want to correct me

 

[HighPockets]

This thread was a great to read. While I want to primarily use the manure from the rabbits I will ensure they have a clean and enriched life as I can provide and I will enjoy them as pets. I too will be doing a combination of approaches that will benefit first the health and comfort of the rabbits and then my purpose of having them.

 

[Lewis]

Loved reading this thread! I am now going to look into omega and vitamin E enriched foods for my bun. I only have one and it’s hard finding information on the care for bunnies especially for angoras.I have a mainly indoor rabbit (in the future I’d like another one) with a litter pan that has wires on the bottom (keeps his wool clean). I understand why people have wire cages for their rabbits. I also on the pet rabbit site mentioned above but I don’t go on it too much as it seems a little too dramatic and I’ve gain so much information being on here and reading old threads.

 

[Jackrabbit]

I breed Rex (Mini&Standard) in cages which are for meat and pets and breeding stock, whom I see as livestock. And I have a Rex doe who lives in my room with me! She has a hutch in my room and only sleeps in the hutch, during the day she’s out and about in my yard or room. I love her very much and treat her as if she was my child, she’s so spoiled!

 

[golden rabbitry]

I started out having a pet, then bred for pets (I was 12 and didn't have the money to get good stock), and am now 17 and breeding for show. I am a member of the pet community (Not many people know that I breed, they just see pictures of my spoiled herd) and I have to say the main difference I see in the groups is the opinions.

The pet people (majority, not all are like this and many are kind) view breeding as a sin and punishable by death. They treat their rabbits very well but many disagree with the stacker setup many breeders have. They are the heroes that save rabbits that are abandoned or from irresponsible breeders. The pet community is very important to me as a breeder because they almost cull out the bad breeders to create a better rabbit world. I feel their dietary choices often make more problems than they solve. Once again, due to lack of information. I've seen obesity, all veg diet, yogurt drops, ect making their rabbits sick because they assume all pellets are bad. Bighairbuns makes an amazing point with diet.

Now my opinion on "bad breeders" is a bit different since I once was the uneducated "bad breeder". The way I see it is anyone who breeds for quantity, turns out mix rabbits, low quality, ect. is the standard definition but many people forget that these breeders just lack understanding, funds, or education. For me it was all three and when entering into the show breeding world, I basically got attacked at all angles since I didn't know anything. There were very few people that understood that despite my many years of breeding, I didn't know what an SOP or linebreeding was. If anyone is breeding exclusively for pets and has the option to get quality stock but decides it's not necessary, that's when I have a problem. These are the ones the pet community fears and the show people dislike because they cause a huge problem. The majority of them have a hard time selling off stock and are often times (not always) the people who dump them in the park or sell them to people who will. Pet breeders can be on either side of the care spectrum. Some have their rabbits indoor and pampered, bred once to keep a kit, and then spay and fix the entire herd, which I view as just adorable. But these are the people that blur the lines.

I would like to mention the ARBA has many articles on diet (one just in the last issue of Domestics Rabbits) because a good show breeder will feed a perfect diet to get a good condition on their rabbits. A healthy rabbit will be more fertile, look better, feel better, ect. For me, black sun flower seeds, apple cider vinegar, oats, parsley, and home grown hay are the best tricks I've learned to keep my rabbits healthy and happy. Resting matts and other tools to keep rabbits happy in a wire cage are also necessities for any breeder. I feel that wire cages are so much more sanitary and should simply be adjusted to the rabbits needs instead of rebuked. As for pens and runs, I do occasionally feel bad for keeping my rabbits caged since I used to have huge cages but I do fill the cages with enrichment as simple as empty TP rolls and wooden balls. Some have little rings I can hang toys on and for babies I give cut up plastic drain pipes for them to crawl through when they transition from the nestbox and throughout their time until they physically don't fit in them (they love it). I find it sad that the pet community is so against wire cages, ever since I got my stackers, my rabbits are so much cleaner and I can throw toys in without worrying that they will be pooped on or berried.

I find many show breeders take much better care of their rabbits than the family that gets advise from the very petstore they buy the rabbit from and personally think the only pet rabbits that should be produced are the culls from show breeders or, as long as the herd is close to the sop, color breeders who breed unrecognizable colors like VM, WE, and colors that don't belong to a particular breed as long as the rabbit itself isn't horribly built or bred for quantity.

To sum up, I honestly think the diet suggested by the ARBA is the healthiest and easiest to maintain. I don't think the setups of show breeders is cruel as long as they abide in the cage sizes and care recommended by the ARBA (yes, each size of rabbit has a smallest cage size limit that the breeder should abide in. For me and my hollands 18x24 is the smallest I'll go and should go) At the end of the day, it really depends what you can supply. If you have few rabbits and can give them a pen to live in and a diet fit for a king, go for it. But if you have a large herd and focus on showing, stick to the rules and play nice, give your rabbits room, and a proper diet. As someone who is very connected to my rabbits, I can tell some need more attention than others and I tend to bring those inside with me to make sure they are loved. But the majority are just happy to see me in the morning and get some good nose pets. Not all rabbits want to be handled and many actually prefer their cage over a large run. My does especially find fulfillment in raising babies and don't want someone constantly touching them.

At the end, it really depends on the rabbit. My herd is at 8 without babies so I am able to give attention. But others don't need anything beyond a hay ball, some tp rolls, and a good diet to live a happy and healthy life. If I see one of my rabbits isn't happy, I do what I must to make them happy. I'm keeping two bonded jr does I plan on breeding (fostered together) together for the majority of their life since they are happy together so I purchased 30x24 cages for growing them out together. I accommodate to what my rabbits want and consider what they need over practicality. It isn't hard for me to chuck in a toy or take one to watch a movie in the living room with the fam. I believe, if the breeder has the means to, they should treat their rabbits like this but once again, in many situations it isn't possible and I see no problem with that as long as the rabbits are healthy physically and mentally.

 

[RubyRed]

Thanks guys! These replies were really helpful @golden rabbitry like you I think I’m going to start out breeding for pets for now. I have two nice hollands and they’re going to be 6 mo in late September so I think I’m just going to start out with them for awhile. In the future I may start getting more rabbits and breeding for show.

 

[golden rabbitry]

Thanks guys! These replies were really helpful @golden rabbitry like you I think I’m going to start out breeding for pets for now. I have two nice hollands and they’re going to be 6 mo in late September so I think I’m just going to start out with them for awhile. In the future I may start getting more rabbits and breeding for show.

I'd recommend not breeding for pet without continuedly upgrading your herd to be closer to the SOP, it was really hard to transition. If you start for pet, make sure you pedigree and constantly use the profit to save up for higher quality stock. It really helps in the long run since when you start breeding for show, most of what you produce will be pet quality

 

[RubyRed]

I'd recommend not breeding for pet without continuedly upgrading your herd to be closer to the SOP, it was really hard to transition. If you start for pet, make sure you pedigree and constantly use the profit to save up for higher quality stock. It really helps in the long run since when you start breeding for show, most of what you produce will be pet quality

I will keep that in mind- my two Hollands were purchased from a really good show breeder and have nice type so I think that will be fine for now, and I will be selling them with pedigrees no matter their purpose.
What price do you recommend for show quality Holland Lops? In my area they’re sold for anything from $25 to $400 () I want my price to be something low enough for people to consider paying but still high enough that I’m making a bit of a profit.

 

[golden rabbitry]

I will keep that in mind- my two Hollands were purchased from a really good show breeder and have nice type so I think that will be fine for now, and I will be selling them with pedigrees no matter their purpose.
What price do you recommend for show quality Holland Lops? In my area they’re sold for anything from $25 to $400 () I want my price to be something low enough for people to consider paying but still high enough that I’m making a bit of a profit.

make sure you know what you have and the lines they carry. If you can, put your choice babies on the table and see what the judges think because that's the best way to see what you really have. Personally, 100-150 is a good price to start because you make a profit and you sell the babies fast to make room for more

 

[SableSteel]

I will keep that in mind- my two Hollands were purchased from a really good show breeder and have nice type so I think that will be fine for now, and I will be selling them with pedigrees no matter their purpose.
What price do you recommend for show quality Holland Lops? In my area they’re sold for anything from $25 to $400 () I want my price to be something low enough for people to consider paying but still high enough that I’m making a bit of a profit.

Your goal in breeding rabbits shouldn't be to make a profit. Look at other rabbits near you that are similar quality to get a baseline on price. Imo 100-150 is too much for a first litter, especially with parents who had never been shown.

 

[RubyRed]

Your goal in breeding rabbits shouldn't be to make a profit. Look at other rabbits near you that are similar quality to get a baseline on price. Imo 100-150 is too much for a first litter, especially with parents who had never been shown.

I think I might sell them for $50 each for the first litter. My primary goal would also not to make a profit, but it’d be nice for me to make a bit of money to use with the rabbits since I’m still in school and don’t have a ton of money.

 

[Preitler]

Just to point it out, I think that "Your goal in breeding rabbits shouldn't be to make a profit." is not about morals or such things, but that such a goal quite likely isn't going to materialize anytime soon, if ever. So I wouldn't count on it, but take it as a pleasant surprise if the endeavor isn't a money pit . One would get frustrated pretty quickly if the goal isn't the satisfaction and joy of working with animals.

 

[hotzcatz]

I don't see anything wrong with trying to make some money, even if it's just to offset feed bills. If pet quality buns are going for a hundred and a half, then ask a hundred and a half. Doesn't matter if it's a first or fourth litter, if that's what's the going rate in your area, go for it. If they've got pedigrees, then that's valuable, too.

You can ask more for females than males, as well as ask more for special colors, so it doesn't have to be a blanket price for any of the offspring.

 

[golden rabbitry]

I don't see anything wrong with trying to make some money, even if it's just to offset feed bills. If pet quality buns are going for a hundred and a half, then ask a hundred and a half. Doesn't matter if it's a first or fourth litter, if that's what's the going rate in your area, go for it. If they've got pedigrees, then that's valuable, too.

You can ask more for females than males, as well as ask more for special colors, so it doesn't have to be a blanket price for any of the offspring.

100% agree, I choose each price for my kits at 6 weeks. I evaluate their structure, color, and gender to get a good price. It also depends who you are selling to. Breeders who breed for color will pay alot more for a WE than for a tort but a show breeder would cull the WE

 

[hotzcatz]

What's a 'WE'?

 

[ladysown]

Sell for what you can make. Seriously. I had to jump through the hurdle mentally. I have a low mental price of what I think my rabbits are worth and was selling for just above that (leaves me bartering room). UNTIL I had two separate breeders tell me "you aren't selling them for enough, sell them for more". Hubsters chimed in with "if people are willing to pay it, you aren't charging too much". See what the markets around you are selling for. Note that mixed breeds don't tend to sell for as much as purebreds. Adding pedigrees, samples of feed, toe clips etc all add to your incentives/price fixing. Nothing wrong with making money for your rabbits.. people make money from cattle, sheep, goats, horses, etc.... rabbits are just another form of livestock.

 

[golden rabbitry]

What's a 'WE'?

white ear, the rabbit is one color and the ears are white. It's like vienna marked