Show Quality vs not - Your standard

[michabo3000]

tnelsonfla,,,Not sure who your talking to , but i wasnt aware that it was a rule that one could only respond to the original poster. It would be rude of me not to respond back when someone is adressing me, my grandmother would have smacked me when i was a kid for ignoreing someone. Anne clair and i were merely working out our differnces of opinion. Please dont try to start trouble in here bossing people around.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

okeeye: :duel:

 

[tnelsonfla]

:hijacked: fftopic3: :rant:

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I never said breeds start out as perfect, i never even implied that, i just said the first of a breed is the best of its kind, if there are no others of a breed, how can there be others better.
Ive never asked anyone to agree with me, ive never singled anyone out and told them they were doing something wrong. I stated what i believe to be facts ,and what my opinions are. Its others here that seem to have a problem with it and want me to say im wrong or something. Its a few of yall that are beating me in the head because of my opinions , not the other way around.

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but "first of a breed" and "start of a breed" sound pretty similar to me.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and should feel free to share it. The problem here is that you keep repeating your opinion whenever anyone disagrees, like you think the REST of us are wrong and you want US to admit WE are wrong....and you word your posts in such a way that they *read* as if you think you are the only correct person and everyone else is WRONG WRONG WRONG. That may not be your intent, but it does. Tone does not convey well in print sometimes...

I am sure you are referring to me as one of the "few" and that is ok, since as a Moderator, that is my job. I actually like to read a lot of your posts, since you usually come across as literate and well spoken.

 

[Dreamerz]

IMHO ~
Show Quality = An animal with no DQs ~ an animal you would be willing to show, usually not your VERY BEST as that you most likely would want to keep.

Brood Quality = An animal that just doesn't have that "IT" factor of your first choices ~ an animal that may have a slight DQ (ex: a few stray color hairs, a charlie marked, slightly over or under weight ... etc.) but still shows good type going by the SoP.

Pet Quality = An animal showing a major fault.

:idea: I also wanted to state that "cull" does not always mean the same thing to all people. Yes, to many people it means freezer camp (for lack of a better term) ... to other people (like me) it means to remove from from your breeding program (yes, i'm a whimp & just can't kill something because it isn't as pretty as another of it's kind.). :? So going by my use of the word cull if I couldn't pet out my lesser quality animals I could very easily be over run.

:roll: I may be wrong but I think back in zoology class I read somewhere that all breeds of todays domestic rabbits, except three where derived from the same type of wild rabbit. Would this not mean that every breed started out as mutts ?! I am honestly curious about this, not trying to start any fires.

Jane

 

[Piper]

Ok, I am mixed up. I have been reading this thread as a 'kind of' continuation of the thread here
post87088.html?hilit=%20sell%20pet%20breed%20yourself#p87088
Also, I like the recipe ideas that michabo3000 has on the other thread, so I have been staying low, till now.
I have been thinking that michabo3000 did not put much thinking into those show culls and half breeds - being able to breed some nice meat mutts.
The altex rabbit, "the Altex is a commercial-bred rabbit. They were not developed for exhibition at rabbit shows."
http://users.tamuk.edu/kfsdl00/rabb.html
Also, the Altex is a (CAL), that you breed to a NZW to get a (cross breed) meat rabbit, that is suppose to do better than either breed by it's self.
I intend to have a meat line and a pedigree breed and even though some show type rabbits are said to have nice meat - they still are 'not' meat rabbits!
So yes, I will be selling live half breeds, for ""pets"", so that they can breed their own Hasenpfeffer and maybe get into showing a breed, too.
We bred and showed dogs (Papillons) for 11 years in confirmation and utility, because we got hooked by a dogs personality.

 

[Dreamerz]

Ok, I am mixed up. I have been reading this thread as a 'kind of' continuation of the thread here
post87088.html?hilit=%20sell%20pet%20breed%20yourself#p87088 .

I believe they are two totally different threads, at least they read that way to me.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

The altex rabbit, "the Altex is a commercial-bred rabbit. They were not developed for exhibition at rabbit shows."
http://users.tamuk.edu/kfsdl00/rabb.html
Also, the Altex is a (CAL), that you breed to a NZW to get a (cross breed) meat rabbit, that is suppose to do better than either breed by it's self.

Piper, the Altex is NOT a CAL...it is it's own separate breed that was developed by selecting for certain traits over many, many generations, starting with purebred Californian (CAL), Champagne d'Argent (CHA) and Flemish Giant (FG) rabbits as the foundation stock.

Here is an article from TAMUK outlining how they were developed....

http://users.tamuk.edu/kfsdl00/altex-article.html

 

[skysthelimit]

Also, the Altex is a (CAL), that you breed to a NZW to get a (cross breed) meat rabbit, that is suppose to do better than either breed by it's self.
I intend to have a meat line and a pedigree breed and even though some show type rabbits are said to have nice meat - they still are 'not' meat rabbits!
So yes, I will be selling live half breeds, for ""pets"", so that they can breed their own Hasenpfeffer and maybe get into showing a breed, too.
We bred and showed dogs (Papillons) for 11 years in confirmation and utility, because we got hooked by a dogs personality.

The Altex is a terminal cross sire, http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html, they are not meant to be saved for future breedings, as they hybrid vigor begins to diminish after the first generation. It will do no good to sell altex crosses, they will not retain the rapid growth.
And I have to beg to differ, what makes a NZW, Cal or even a Rex a show winner, is how meaty it is. If it does not comform to the standards of a true meat breed, it does not win on the table.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Also, the Altex is a (CAL), that you breed to a NZW to get a (cross breed) meat rabbit, that is suppose to do better than either breed by it's self.
I intend to have a meat line and a pedigree breed and even though some show type rabbits are said to have nice meat - they still are 'not' meat rabbits!
So yes, I will be selling live half breeds, for ""pets"", so that they can breed their own Hasenpfeffer and maybe get into showing a breed, too.
We bred and showed dogs (Papillons) for 11 years in confirmation and utility, because we got hooked by a dogs personality.

The Altex is a terminal cross sire, http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html, they are not meant to be saved for future breedings, as they hybrid vigor begins to diminish after the first generation. It will do no good to sell altex crosses, they will not retain the rapid growth.
And I have to beg to differ, what makes a NZW, Cal or even a Rex a show winner, is how meaty it is. If it does not comform to the standards of a true meat breed, it does not win on the table.

That is absolutely right, Sky. All offspring of an Altex sire mated to another breed are meant to be fryers and not kept or used for breeding purposes.

And I agree completely about the "meat" breeds. In the show world they are considered "Commercial" body type and are aslo used for meat raising. If a rabbit does not make a good "meat" rabbit, then it certainly isn't going to win on any show tables, no matter how purebred or pedigreed it is. Somewhere along the way, the term "meat" rabbit has come to always mean a rabbit that is somehow inferior to a show rabbit, and that is just not accurate. My rabbits are raised for meat and I sell to other breeders as well. I have Cals, NZW, and Rex. I have several that I have sold that went on to become winners on the show table because they are excellent specimens of their breed and they are fantastic meat rabbits to boot!

 

[MKirst]

Also, the Altex is a (CAL), that you breed to a NZW to get a (cross breed) meat rabbit, that is suppose to do better than either breed by it's self.
I intend to have a meat line and a pedigree breed and even though some show type rabbits are said to have nice meat - they still are 'not' meat rabbits!
So yes, I will be selling live half breeds, for ""pets"", so that they can breed their own Hasenpfeffer and maybe get into showing a breed, too.
We bred and showed dogs (Papillons) for 11 years in confirmation and utility, because we got hooked by a dogs personality.

The Altex is a terminal cross sire, http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html, they are not meant to be saved for future breedings, as they hybrid vigor begins to diminish after the first generation. It will do no good to sell altex crosses, they will not retain the rapid growth.
And I have to beg to differ, what makes a NZW, Cal or even a Rex a show winner, is how meaty it is. If it does not comform to the standards of a true meat breed, it does not win on the table.

That is absolutely right, Sky. All offspring of an Altex sire mated to another breed are meant to be fryers and not kept or used for breeding purposes.

And I agree completely about the "meat" breeds. In the show world they are considered "Commercial" body type and are aslo used for meat raising. If a rabbit does not make a good "meat" rabbit, then it certainly isn't going to win on any show tables, no matter how purebred or pedigreed it is. Somewhere along the way, the term "meat" rabbit has come to always mean a rabbit that is somehow inferior to a show rabbit, and that is just not accurate. My rabbits are raised for meat and I sell to other breeders as well. I have Cals, NZW, and Rex. I have several that I have sold that went on to become winners on the show table because they are excellent specimens of their breed and they are fantastic meat rabbits to boot!

So then someone new and starting out and never bred rabbits before should follow the meat rabbit standard as a good starting point for show quality rabbits ? Just wondering.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

The Altex is a terminal cross sire, http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html, they are not meant to be saved for future breedings, as they hybrid vigor begins to diminish after the first generation. It will do no good to sell altex crosses, they will not retain the rapid growth.
And I have to beg to differ, what makes a NZW, Cal or even a Rex a show winner, is how meaty it is. If it does not comform to the standards of a true meat breed, it does not win on the table.

That is absolutely right, Sky. All offspring of an Altex sire mated to another breed are meant to be fryers and not kept or used for breeding purposes.

And I agree completely about the "meat" breeds. In the show world they are considered "Commercial" body type and are aslo used for meat raising. If a rabbit does not make a good "meat" rabbit, then it certainly isn't going to win on any show tables, no matter how purebred or pedigreed it is. Somewhere along the way, the term "meat" rabbit has come to always mean a rabbit that is somehow inferior to a show rabbit, and that is just not accurate. My rabbits are raised for meat and I sell to other breeders as well. I have Cals, NZW, and Rex. I have several that I have sold that went on to become winners on the show table because they are excellent specimens of their breed and they are fantastic meat rabbits to boot!

So then someone new and starting out and never bred rabbits before should follow the meat rabbit standard as a good starting point for show quality rabbits ? Just wondering.

No, what I am saying is that "meat" and "show" are NOT mutually exclusive...that is all. And there is no "meat rabbit" standard. Each breed has it's own Standard of Perfection. Ideally, if you are raising purebreds of ANY breed, you *should* be looking to the SOP as your guide when breeding. Commercial breeders, or people like myself that breed for meat as well, often add additional traits that the SOP does not define, like litter size, mothering skills, milking ability, # raised to weaning, etc....

 

[skysthelimit]

No, what I am saying is that "meat" and "show" are NOT mutually exclusive...that is all. And there is no "meat rabbit" standard. Each breed has it's own Standard of Perfection. Ideally, if you are raising purebreds of ANY breed, you *should* be looking to the SOP as your guide when breeding. Commercial breeders, or people like myself that breed for meat as well, often add additional traits that the SOP does not define, like litter size, mothering skills, milking ability, # raised to weaning, etc....

And that's where show breeders get the bad rap, is while most are looking for the meatiest, fullest rabbit for their winner, they sometimes neglect those other traits that OAF mentioned--litter size, mothering skills, milking ability, health, etc. Those traits are very important to me, however, since I am doing both.

Since someone brought up show dogs, a great example is the german shepherd. People like to bring up that the AKC or show breeders have ruined the breed (even though AKC does not make up standards, breed clubs do) and not a single American bred German Shepherd can fulfill it's original purpose as a working dog. Because most working people don't show, or most show people don;t work, this is hard to prove or disprove. I maintain that a correct dog, bred to the standard (not always what you see in the ring) can show well and work well. hence my dogs have herding titles and show points. What they can do is limited by my funds, not by their conformation, temperament, drive or lack their of.

 

[Piper]

Because most working people don't show, or most show people don;t work, this is hard to prove or disprove.

check out the looks of registered 'hunting' Irish Setters. The ones in the field can have as many ribbons, ect. as the ones in the show ring - the field Irish 'can' look a lot different than the show 'confirmation' Irish Setters.

 

[skysthelimit]

Because most working people don't show, or most show people don;t work, this is hard to prove or disprove.

check out the looks of registered 'hunting' Irish Setters. The ones in the field can have as many ribbons, ect. as the ones in the show ring - the field Irish 'can' look a lot different than the show 'confirmation' Irish Setters.

I know that it does not always equate with other breeds. Border collies also look different working vs show. My statement only applies to german shepherds, a breed I raise and show and work. Most show people don't work their dogs. It's cost prohibitive.

As the does the statement for NZW, Cals and Rexes, which I have seen at show and at the meat markets, and for Rexes in particular which I raise and show. I use specific instances with animals I am familiar with, because if there is one thing I don't like, is overarching, generalizing statements, pushed around as fact. Reading the SOP, a "meat breed" at it's high point is supposed to be geared towards type, which is meat producing qualities. An ARBA judge is looking for type, and if you are a meat breed, you better look like you belong on the dinner table or you won't place on the show table.

 

[Piper]

As the does the statement for NZW, Cals and Rexes, which I have seen at show and at the meat markets, and for Rexes in particular which I raise and show. I use specific instances with animals I am familiar with, because if there is one thing I don't like, is overarching, generalizing statements, pushed around as fact. Reading the SOP, a "meat breed" at it's high point is supposed to be geared towards type, which is meat producing qualities. An ARBA judge is looking for type, and if you are a meat breed, you better look like you belong on the dinner table or you won't place on the show table.

I agree. I am actually 'still on the fence' about Altex. Some of the purebreds have been bred for their fine quality meat. Just because an Altex is great as an terminal cross (and for survival farms) does not mean that it would be gourmet quality. I am using "Rex du Poitou" http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl ... 26hs%3DbUg
as an reference.
Since I am leery about processing - for someone else, rabbit or chicken - I would sell, the terminal crosses, but would put the words live weight in the ad. I also intend on putting information, like this, with web links, on my web site and print it off - to go with the rabbit.

Also, it seems as if meat rabbit defines as anything with "efficient metabolisms and grow quickly" (from wikipedia) and there are other pure breeds (besides Rex) that are suppose to have 'gourmet quality' meat.
Meat rabbits
Commercially processed lean rabbit meat
Meat-type rabbits being raised as a supplementary food source during the Great Depression
Breeds such as the New Zealand and Californian are frequently utilized for meat in commercial rabbitries. These breeds have efficient metabolisms and grow quickly; they are ready for slaughter by approximately 14 to 16 weeks of age.
Rabbit fryers are rabbits that are between 70 to 90 days of age, and weighing between 3 to 5 lb (1 to 2 kg) live weight. Rabbit roasters are rabbits from 90 days to 6 months of age weighing between 5 to 8 lb (2 to 3.5 kg) live weight. Rabbit stewers are rabbits from 6 months on weighing over 8 lb.
Any type of rabbit can be slaughtered for meat, but those exhibiting the "commercial" body type are most commonly raised for meat purposes. Dark fryers (any other color but albino whites) are sometimes lower in price than albino fryers because of the slightly darker tinge of the fryer (purely pink carcasses are preferred by consumers) and because the hide is harder to remove manually than the white albino fryers.
Well-known chef Mark Bittman says that domesticated rabbit tastes like chicken because both are blank palettes upon which any desired flavors can be layered.[25]

 

[skysthelimit]

I asked this question once before---for what ever your respective breed(s) is(are), what imperfections do you tolerate, and which absolutely will send a kit/rabbit to freezer camp.

Mine for Rexes/hollands --Narrow body, low shoulders, pinched hindquarters, inability to kindle live, large litters.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Since most of mine (Cal, NZW, Rex) are of the commercial body type, my cull list is similar to yours:

General type and health: Narrow body, long or low shoulders, pinched hindquarters, cow hocks, recurrent sore hocks or mastitis

Meat characteristics: regular litters less than 7, not raising at least 75% of the litter to weaning, poor mothering skills (nest building, feeding), poor milk production, inability to tolerate at LEAST a 28 day breed back schedule.

I expect mine (with the exception of the Rex, which take a bit longer to mature) to look like little bricks of meat by 6-8 weeks. If they don't, then I don't keep or sell them for breeding, they go in the pot. If they meet my criteria, and are as good as what I have, I will sell them. If they meet my criteria and are better than what I have, I keep them for my own breeding program.

For the Am. Blues, I am not sure yet since I just got them and they are only 10wks old....we shall see

__________ Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:40 pm __________

I agree. I am actually 'still on the fence' about Altex. Some of the purebreds have been bred for their fine quality meat. Just because an Altex is great as an terminal cross (and for survival farms) does not mean that it would be gourmet quality. I am using "Rex du Poitou" http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl ... 26hs%3DbUg
as an reference.

I don't believe it WAS bred to be a gourmet meat. It was bred to help produce larger rabbits, faster, on less food, in hotter weather.

When you say you are raising "Rex du Poitou", do you mean you are raising your Rex in a similar manner or did you somehow get some of this specific bloodline from France?

 

[skysthelimit]

Meat characteristics: regular litters less than 7, not raising at least 75% of the litter to weaning, poor mothering skills (nest building, feeding), poor milk production, inability to tolerate at LEAST a 28 day breed back schedule.

I have a doe that consistently gives me litters of six, even when she had 12, half of those kits died within the first day, until the litter was down to six. In three litters, every time she was over six, but 2-3 died so that she was down to six! It's like her magic number.

And she is one with sore hocks. I was wondering if I should cull for it, because they all have sitting boards now, so that's not the cause.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Well, I would, but that is just me....and that could mean pass her on to someone willing to do the extra work or send to FC.