Should I just be done with them all?

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coffeenutdesigns

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Well, I think one of my nursing does might have snuffles. She has been in close quarters with my other does. I was hoping since it has been a few weeks since removing my buck with no symptoms among the other rabbits, maybe we were clear by now.

The kits are a week old and headed for freezer camp in the end, but I was hoping to keep a buck out of one of the litters. At this point, I just worry about the whole bunch of them just developing symptoms one by one.

Is there any chance of developing a "clean" herd from any of the kits I have right now or should I just plan on culling the lot of them in one mass exodus and starting over when I can find some new stock?

__________ Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:20 am __________

With all the rabbits and popples I have at the moment, if I were to cull all of them when the kits are old enough, I could fill my freezer enough to be okay for the year or until next fall at least considering I am also about to process 2 pigs (decided against breeding the female). I could just look at these guys as a terminal herd, kind of like buying a batch of meat chickens.

__________ Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:23 am __________

BUT, if there is any chance at all of getting a clean herd out of them, I would like to keep a trio at least. I have litters from different bucks and does. I just don't want to keep shooting myself in the foot if the probability is the same end result.
 
Any reason you wouldn't cull all but a few potential breeders and see how they do before starting over completely? (I am still learning, so I'm sincere when I ask; what do you have to loose from saving a trio and testing it out?)
 
PistolPackingMomma":2z6643wp said:
Any reason you wouldn't cull all but a few potential breeders and see how they do before starting over completely? (I am still learning, so I'm sincere when I ask; what do you have to loose from saving a trio and testing it out?)
Click to expand...

That's a good idea, and exactly what I would have suggested :)

Most rabbit herds have some form of snuffles in them, but are immune to that strain. Keep the ones who look healthiest, are biggest. Track the babies, note anyone who's had mushy poos, and mark them for FC. Same with going off the feed, or simply not seeming as thrifty.

Worst case scenario, the ones you keep back end up going to FC later on, and you have to start with a fresh herd in the fall :).
 
That's what I'm debating. I'm not sure I want to put a lot of time and effort into raising some up if they are going to end up in freezer camp anyway.

Is it possible to have babies NOT contract it from a nursing doe?
 
They may get it but have a stronger immune system and successfully fight it off. If they survive weaning stress without a flare up then they're keepers.
 
Would I know by dispatch age whether they have it or not?

How much exposure should they have to mom in the meantime? Should I quarantine them in a different place than the mom? They are actually 9 days old. Should I even try early weaning at week 3? I have 6 does, 4 with litters. I don't want to keep hanging on in the hopes they will be fine only to end up losing them all and it being a long drawn out process.

Decisions decisions.
 
Pasteurella multocida doesn't work that way in rabbits. If they are infected, they are infected. They can be exposed and NOT contract it, IF they have a healthy immune system. If they show any symptoms at all, then they are infected and even if the symptoms go away, they will always carry the infection. Honestly? Treat them as a terminal herd and then cull them all. I mean, you *might* get a few that are resistant, but you may also end up like us and watch them all come down with it, one by one, over the course of time. Those kits will have to be held in quarantine until breeding age and then kept in quarantine thru kindling to see how they react to the stress of it. After experiencing it first hand, I say process them all for food and super disinfect everything and start over with healthy stock.<br /><br />__________ Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:46 pm __________<br /><br />Did you read thru this?

post128743.html#p128743
 
OneAcreFarm":3htjtula said:
Pasteurella multocida doesn't work that way in rabbits. If they are infected, they are infected. They can be exposed and NOT contract it, IF they have a healthy immune system. If they show any symptoms at all, then they are infected and even if the symptoms go away, they will always carry the infection. Honestly? Treat them as a terminal herd and then cull them all. I mean, you *might* get a few that are resistant, but you may also end up like us and watch them all come down with it, one by one, over the course of time. Those kits will have to be held in quarantine until breeding age and then kept in quarantine thru kindling to see how they react to the stress of it. After experiencing it first hand, I say process them all for food and super disinfect everything and start over with healthy stock.

__________ Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:46 pm __________

Did you read thru this?

post128743.html#p128743
Click to expand...


Yes, which is why after seeing 2 get sick over the course of several weeks (seriously, how long does it take to manifest symptoms?) I just don't want to keep trying to save a herd that is doomed. I feel like I'm in a rabbit version of "Final Destination" or something. They made it through the wreck so now they are just going to die off in a different way. Bleh.

__________ Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:06 pm __________

I guess I should just feel lucky to have had what I had while I had it, since I really didn't think I would have any litters until at least September and since insurance paid off our trailer, so now we own a beat up trailer instead of owing on a new one, and totalled out our truck so we got a slightly newer one with far fewer miles, I will say I got a good return on my initial rabbit investment, even if I did get some gray hairs in the process.

Is there any point in keeping the kits away from mom at this point? I have their box in a separate cage nearby in quarantine with her at the moment, but thinking I could just put the box back in with her since they've already been with her?
 
Coffeenut, no need to keep the kits seperate from mom ... either they get it or they don't and you cannot know until they are grown out and breeding, which is a long way to "go" to still end up having to terminally cull them. And, even if you raise some that show no signs of symptoms, you cannot know if they are carriers, waiting to infect any new stock you bring in.
 
I've heard a variety of things. That any rabbit in contact may be infected but not showing symptoms. That a rabbit in contact that shows symptoms is immune, not just an infected carrier. I honestly am not and expert and don't know what the answer is. In my experience, four rabbits of mine came down with pastuerella. The rest of my herd seem to be unaffected, whether by immunity or carriers with lack of symptoms. They have been so for about two months now. It would be more than four months if you count when I first saw a symptom of pastuerella in my infected and symptomatic rabbits, but did not know enough to diagnose it. At least one of my other does had kits during that time and the stress of doing so did not cause her to exhibit any symptoms.

It sounds like you are in a much more precarious situation since the kits involved have a higher chance of contracting from the doe. Still, I would either raise them out till butchering age, or try keeping a few to see if they can successfully raise kits of their own. One thing I've heard, though I've heard otherwise as well, is that all rabbits carry some strains of this disease and are immune to some. If you keep a trio, it may pose a risk to any new rabbits you bring in. But then, that could happen either way. If you completely start over and then later bring in a carrier with a strain your rabbits aren't resistant to, this could happen again. I would say go with what you have. Try raising the kits for meat, and let the promising ones have a chance to breed. If you see the hint of a symptom, cull immediately. If you don't though, it might be worth taking the chance that you have strong stock that will give you more strong kits in the future.
 
the advantage to weaning them at three weeks is it puts stress on the kits.
IF they show stress by showing signs of illness you are no further behind than you would have been...you just KNOW they are sick.

those that show no signs of illness...those ones you hold back. Breed 'em in isolation...but since they'd be the only ones you are keeping back you aren't out anything. It's all a test right? if you breed 'em early that's also shortens the test period.
 
I also would like to add....Bring in new stock that you culled all of yours.. who to say these new rabbits dont have it. It is a ending circle. This is why you only get from one breeder than you raise from what you got. I would do what daray says. Keep the ones that dont show any signs. At least you know what you have and they were raise there. Bring in news , stress them out too..
 
The quarantine period is not just to protect your rabbits. It also let's the new comers become exposed to small doses of your herds germs and gives them time to develop antibodies so when they are in close contact and exposed to a big dose of novel bacteria they are ready.

Just one bacterium of pasturella or even a dozen is not going to cause a rabbit to show symptoms, most rabbits immune systems can easily wipe out the invader and be ready for them next time. You will need an "infectious dose" of the disease organisms to show symptoms.

I would not eliminate your whole herd. Certainly wean the kits as soon as possible, cull that doe and anyone else who shows symptoms but there is a good chance some will be strong enough to fight it off and pass their good genes on to the future generations.

If you do bring in new stock, I would impose a very strict quarantine for 45 days and at the end I would bring one of your rabbits to the quarantine area for a week and see what happens before moving them in the regular rabbit area.
 
I agree in principle with Dood, but I start the cross-exposure near the end of the second week. I make sure to handle the bun(s) in quarantine last, but near the end of the second week, I stop washing up after handling my herd. If a new bun hasn't shown signs of infection after about 10 days, I lighten up on the sanitation protocols to begin exposing that rabbit to my herd's germs so that by the end of quarantine, if any new bun was going to react to anything in my herd, it should be showing itself by then ... maybe not sneezing, but a goopy eye will earn another week-10 days in quarantine.
 
I do something very similar to AnnClaire with my quarantine. In addition, after 3 - 3 1/2 weeks, I no longer wash up if I handle the new bun before I go back out to the rabbitry. I want to make sure that if the new bun is carrying any new germs, my herd has a chance to build up antibodies to them before the bun comes in with them and exposes them big time.
 
Luckily, most of my quarantine has rather been "managed cross-exposure" LOL And during all this back-and-forth I watch carefully for any signs of sneezing, eye goop, runny nose in all the buns. Again, I have been EXTREMELY lucky that no one has been infected and I dread bringing in new stock in the future!

One thing that has helped me very much is participation in forums like this ... yahoo, rabbit talk, facebook. And I watch to see who talks about what issues in their herd. I have avoided buying from certain folks simply because they have discussed issues in their herd, talked about using preventative treatments (demonstrating weak immune systems in their herd), or discussed practices that I suspect are covering more virulent diseases than what they are treating for.

This has led me to the breeders I have purchased from, and I have been very happy with the way the rabbits were raised and handled, the health of the rabbits, and the quality of the rabbits I have had to buy without in person examination, for the most part.

Coffeenut, you may need/want to start over, or keep the non-symptomatic and add to that. Whatever you decide, we are here to help!
 
Oh, I take full responsibility for the health of these guys. I can't blame the breeders or anything else. I am sure had the trip home been less "rocky" then there is a good chance they could have handled a normal amount of stress. It was a wonder they even survived and went on to kindle. Like I said, I kinda feel like my poor rabbits are living some weird rabbit version of "Final Destination." Death is after them one way or another :/

__________ Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:42 am __________

AnnClaire":3uy94dt2 said:
Coffeenut, you may need/want to start over, or keep the non-symptomatic and add to that. Whatever you decide, we are here to help!
Click to expand...

Thank you. I've had rabbits before, though not for meat. We did have meat rabbits when I was a kid. It has NEVER been this difficult! Other people manage to have rabbits. I am just kind of annoyed. Shouldn't be counting my bunnies before they hatch, I guess.<br /><br />__________ Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:51 am __________<br /><br />Actually, what really annoys me is that I want to play with baby bunnies, but I am paranoid about cross contamination.
 
coffeenutdesigns":2uepo0yf said:
Actually, what really annoys me is that I want to play with baby bunnies, but I am paranoid about cross contamination.
Click to expand...
If you want to raise breeders from within that litter, you really need to handle them. :) Just do it last, and go inside and change and scrub thoroughly!

They will get rather feral if you don't. The litter we're processing tomorrow is that way. We haven't played with them, because they have been such a dirty litter. Ick. I'm not keeping any giblets, and I'm sanitizing the cage when they're gone.

If you're not keeping any, then it doesn't matter, but it is sad not to be able to play with them.
 
All my stock at this point is Terminal Cull. I had pasturella issues just a few months after getting my stock around the same time they became pregnant. Since I only had 4 and all were showing signs within a week I decided TC was the only way to go. My does however were preg. I am waiting until they buns reach fryer size or as best to that as I can. I need the experience before I move on to new stock. The 1st litter mom is a NZ and only sneezed a handful of times. She is a white devil tho so she would be TC'd anyway. The babies all appear healthy but on poor weather days I hear a few little sneezes. They are 7 wks now. The other litter is from a Silver Fox. She showed more signs of pasturella through out her preg and a few days after kindling. They are now 4 wks old and I am treating for watery eyes. One has a sore on her lip I *think* she got from eating. She tries to take food out of the mouth of her siblings and they bit back. This mom has not sneezed for about a week. But they seem to go through cycles. They are working very hard to fight off the illness but then after about 2.5 wks they have a few days of flare up.
I would not keep stock from any of them. The risk is to great to any other stock you bring in. The first weekend in April is out TC day.
 

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