Quit my old job, just emailed for new job, pray! Updated....

[LauraNJ]

A rabbit is livestock. A dog is a pet.

 

[tailwagging]

"Twenty years ago, people knew that a "puppy mill" was a substandard kennel where unhealthy, overbred dogs were kept in horrendous conditions.

Today it's not so easy. In the last decade of the 20th Century, activist groups began to broaden the term to cover just about any kennel that they didn't like......The substandard conditions highlighted in this campaign were a major force for passage of the national Animal Welfare Act. "Puppy mill" first became synonymous with horrible conditions, then was used to indict any breeder who breeds lots of dogs, no matter what the conditions of the kennel or the health of the puppies. HSUS, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and other animal rights groups planted and cultivated this "most kennels are puppy mills" idea in the public consciousness to legitimize themselves in the eyes of animal lovers and to collect tens of millions of dollars in donations. "


http://www.canismajor.com/dog/puppymil.html

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:24 pm __________

A rabbit is livestock. A dog is a pet.

no a rabbit can be classified as a pet (and many think of them as such). and some dogs as employs/working. example a k9 officer, ranch dog, seeing eye,ratter, bomb dog, search and rescue,mushing ....

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:48 pm __________

you may think that you, as just rabbit breeders, are not next but just take a look.

"after switching my dogs to a raw food diet and trying to find inexpensive rabbit meat for them, i discovered there are quite a lot of rabbitmills."
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 519AAsW0UR

"an article from Shelter Sense 10/94, HSUS (national animal rights group): "Pet Bunnies like Bugs, churned out in increasing numbers by "rabbit mills" and breeders for the lucrative pet industry, are surrendered to local shelters daily."

rabbitedsociety.webs.com/Rabbitmills.pdf

“I should be the poster child for animal rights. I am slaughtered for my fur. I am slaughtered for my meat. I am factory farmed in rabbit mills. I am tortured by vivisectors in their ‘labs.’ I am the third most commonly ‘euthanized’ companion animal. I am hunted and snared. I am the object of blood sports. I am often cruelly abused. I am given as a live animal prize. I languish in pet stores. Why aren’t I?”

http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/adv ... al-rights/


they came for the dog breeder.....

 

[scottdigital]

AR do serve a purpose but they have a tendency to go over board. I sometimes get over confident that where I live is so far off the beaten path that No one will bother me up here. Then I remember in the late 90's a mink farmer up here got attacked by PITA and they turned all of their mink loose. They were so proud of their "rescue" of those mink that day. Yet if they were so concerned with their welfare where were they when all of those mink were drowning in the river and getting smashed on the highway.

With that said.... I pity the person who comes on my property threatening me or my critters. My Ex Military Husband needs a new battle to fight every now and then.

I need a sign that says "Property protected by bored combat vet" lol

 

[LauraNJ]

Dogs were bred to help man. They were bred for specific purposes- hunting, herding, guarding, and a few as pure companions. Most domestic dogs could not survive if abandoned. Dogs are property but not livestock. For example, a military dog is on property books. They aren't livestock though. It is illegal in most states to eat a dog but is ok to eat a rabbit or a cow or a pig.

You are right, rabbits can be pets but to me, they are more livestock, they are very multipurpose. Pigs can also be pets but I don't know that they should be classified as such. Really any animal could be nurtured and raised as a pet but that doesn't mean that they should all be classified as pets. Technically, you could say that a dairy cow, with a name is a pet. It isn't being eaten, the kids can pet it, take care of it but when you get down to the primary purpose of a cow it is as livestock, so we can have dairy or meat from it.

It is ridiculous the amount of rabbits in rescues and shelters. Our tax money pays for that. I do wish more breeder required animals to be returned rather than buyers taking them to a shelter. When/if I decide to sell any rabbits to individuals I will have a consequence, same as I did for dogs, if I find one of mine in a shelter, the buyer agrees to a monetary penalty. I will tattoo before selling so I can identify. And I will let the buyer know I will pursue legal action so returning to me is the easiest, best choice with no negative consequence.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Likewise, any sold rabbit will be tattooed and I'll have the buyer sign a right of first refusal should they decide to get rid of it later. That way I can take back or buy back "my" rabbit.

 

[tailwagging]

Demanding a rabbit back will get you ( the rabbit world) in so much hot water.

As it is right now dog breeders are forced to take back a pup anytime in it life to be considered a good breeder. we SHOULD NOT HAVE TO! do I? yes but only because I want the pup to be cared for but I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!
where is the responsibility of the one who bought it???? we complain about people throwing away a pet but we have made it too easy on buyers to do so.

DON'T fall into the HAVE to take back trap for rabbits. don't set it up for anyone to just throw the bun back at you and if you don't take it you are the horrible one. tell them that if comes back you may just eat it.

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:04 pm __________

AR do serve a purpose

They serve no purpose, unless you don't want pets and are willing to live as a vegan. ( no feeding the wild birds either)

now AWs (animal welfare) is much needed. knowing the vast difference between the two is imperative if you keep animals.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Let me be perfectly clear...I don't feel like I have to take a rabbit back. I WANT TO. Why? Because that is my choice and prerogative as a breeder. Please don't berate people for their choices when it comes to breeding.

Sorry if I "sound" a little short here, but trying to dictate what I can and cannot do with pet-quality rabbits I might sell in the future while telling us that the AR people shouldn't dictate what we can and cannot do with the animals we breed/sell/whatever seems a little hypocritical if you asked me.

 

[LauraNJ]

If I choose to put two animals together, if I choose to then offer the offspring for sale, then I do feel that I am responsible to make sure that the animal I produced goes to a good home, that if something happens that I provide that home again.

I also screen buyers, I ask a lot of questions. In almost 30 yrs of showing, breeding dogs I only had 1 where the buyer ran into trouble (divorce and a child with cancer so the whole situation was just heartbreaking). I took the dog, then 7 or 8 yrs old, back and told her I'd keep her at my house, they could visit whenever they wanted. The child went into remission, the Mom got her finances straightened out, all the while they would come visit their dog and then they were able to take the dog back. I would want someone to offer that to me if I had been in that situation. It was the right thing to do, imo.

Anyway, it is our responsibility as a breeder to make sure potential buyers are effectively screened, that they are responsible. Most buyers will not rehome a dog they paid very good money for or that has a money penalty if they take it to a shelter or rescue.

I found that my incentives worked best though. I gave incentives for titles and degrees earned. Buyer had choice of money (like $50 for a CD, $100 for a CDX, $25 for herding instinct test, $10 per conformation point- so a 3 pt major would get them $30) or they could be featured in the breed magazine ad that I took out at least twice a year. Almost all the buyers that pursued degrees and titles choose the ad. All pets were spayed/neutered so there was no money coming back to them but they liked them and their dog being congratulated in the ad.

Rabbits are meat so if I have one come back, it will not be a big deal, it will go into the freezer. I would much rather take a rabbit back than have my taxes go up any more for our no kill shelter to take in more rabbits.

 

[scottdigital]

I figure I will eat mine then I know they wont end up being refused pets in some over stuffed "Rescue" that may more than likely need to be rescued itself.

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:25 pm __________

I have a feeling AW would not have much of a stand without AR to back them and push them. JMO<br /><br />__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:28 pm __________<br /><br />I Just realize that they have their beliefs and I have mine. For example: I am Christian but that doesnt mean that I think Buddists or Muslims have NO Place in the world. Just not in my place.

 

[tailwagging]

Let me be perfectly clear...I don't feel like I have to take a rabbit back. I WANT TO. Why? Because that is my choice and prerogative as a breeder. Please don't berate people for their choices when it comes to breeding.

Sorry if I "sound" a little short here, but trying to dictate what I can and cannot do with pet-quality rabbits I might sell in the future while telling us that the AR people shouldn't dictate what we can and cannot do with the animals we breed/sell/whatever seems a little hypocritical if you asked me.

Sorry it was taken that way.
what i am saying is this. we must be VERY carefully how we as rabbit breeders act. you as a rabbit breeder do not want to be judged the same way as dog breeders are judged now. if we go about tell people that we will take our rabbits back at any time and patting our selves on the back for it (cuz good breeders do), it will become a "you must or you are a bad breeder" thing and ARs WILL push it. the same way it has been pushed on the dog breeders. it fall right into the walmart "take it back" buyers remorse mindset. were the buyer doesn't have to think before buying cuz they can always take it back.

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:50 pm __________

I figure I will eat mine then I know they wont end up being refused pets in some over stuffed "Rescue" that may more than likely need to be rescued itself.

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:25 pm __________

I have a feeling AW would not have much of a stand without AR to back them and push them. JMO

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:28 pm __________

I Just realize that they have their beliefs and I have mine. For example: I am Christian but that doesnt mean that I think Buddists or Muslims have NO Place in the world. Just not in my place.

I don't think you understand AW and AR.

Animal Rights

To end all human “exploitation” of animals -
this includes, but is not limited to, raising
and slaughtering of livestock for human or
animal consumption, eating meat, hunting,
using animals for any medical or veterinary
research, zoos (regardless of how well
managed), circuses, rodeos, horseshows,
dog shows, animals performing in TV
commercials, shows or movies (regardless
of how well treated any of the above are),
guide-dogs for the blind, police dogs, search
& rescue dogs, and the practice of owning pets.

Animal Welfare

To prevent suffering and cruelty to animals. And to
provide care and good homes for pets in need. This
often includes, but is not limited to, the funding and
running of animal shelters (to provide a sanctuary for
abandoned, abused, homeless, or unwanted pets, and
to place them in good homes where possible, provide
painless euthanasia for those that cannot be adopted,
and to educate the public about the need for
spaying/neutering their pets to prevent more surplus
animals ending up in shelters), enforcement of
anti-cruelty statutes (where their authority permits),
initiating, lobbying for, and monitoring enforcement
of legislation to ensure more humane standards of
care for livestock, laboratory animals, performing
animals, and pets.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Thanks for posting the distinction between AR & AW, TailWagging. It is something that we need to be clear about.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I do not believe in Animal Rights. I do believe in Animal Welfare.

 

[tailwagging]

I didn't write it but I couldn't find out who did.

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:26 pm __________

I do not believe in Animal Rights. I do believe in Animal Welfare.

I think most of us do.


Sorry if I get a little passionate about AR and AW. I don't mean to come off pushy it is just scary how too few people understand fully what is happening.

 

[skysthelimit]

Most of the time, the owners don't contact or contract information, and have no idea how to get a hold of the breeder, if they even remember who it was. They probably would surrender the animal if they could figure out where it came from.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Oh I understand it, I just don't agree that we need to limit our use of words or phrases because of it, and I don't feel like I should be told what to do or what not to do in the event I choose to sell a rabbit. Now...honestly, for my Champagnes and Angoras...my Champagnes are going to be raised for meat so it will be rare that I will ever sell one. My Angoras I might breed once a blue moon to get more wool rabbits, but honestly any kits that don't fit my "hoofless sheep" herd can just as easily be eaten.

But I am also considering a breed of tiny dwarf cuteness, and I can't bring myself to look down the iron sights at a teeny bundle of dwarfish adorable. Ergo, I may occasionally have kits for sale. In the event I sell pet-quality kits, there will be a caresheet provided, a week or two's worth of food, and a contract they must sign stating my terms of sale; Buers will keep a copy of the contract, and the contract itself will be kept by me. It isn't a matter of AR people or what is and is not "good breeding" that leads me to include a right of first refusal...it is a means for me to insure my animals don't end up in a shelter. I don't often trust them to do what's right for rabbits (have you seen my post titled "Hopping Sad" in the "Hopping Mad" section?) and if the situation merits it, I'll call the authorities if they return a neglected or abused rabbit to me.

Likewise, if returned for a temperament or behavior problem...well, I can make an exception to my squeamishness and I'd rather shoot and eat a rabbit than have some sort of biting demon out there, tarnishing my name.

Anyways, on to the AR people.

I do not trust them. I do not like them. I do feel they have a core of good intentions, but you know what they say about good intentions...the road to the Hot Place is lined with them. :twisted: They believe in the rightness of their cause and they ignore all relevant facts. Yes, I'm making broad generalizations but they are too often true to ignore it.

Yes, we must oppose them. We cannot let them dictate to us. But we also can't give them more fuel for their campaigns.

I feel that educating each and every person we meet, if appropriate to the situation, is our best course of action. Instead of getting heated and angry, just calmly explain. I've had a lot of people harshly criticize me for keeping rabbits on wire floors...and showing them pictures of rabbits with sore or raw hocks from solid flooring often quiets them. I just stay calm, and show them why I keep my rabbits on wire. If they like, my friends who doubt me can come and look at their feet...everyone has good feet and they hop all over their cages pain-free; the wire doesn't harm them in the least.

But maybe this is just my way of coping with this sort of judgemental behavior. YMMV.

Again, I apologize if I seem a little "short" this afternoon...I've had a VERY bad day, and it looks to only get worse from here on in. <br /><br />__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:43 pm __________<br /><br />

Most of the time, the owners don't contact or contract information, and have no idea how to get a hold of the breeder, if they even remember who it was. They probably would surrender the animal if they could figure out where it came from.

I thought of that the other day, actually...and I'm tempted to make an email account just for pet rabbits; short and easily readable, then tattoo that into the ear of any pet sold. Yes, tattoos fade over time, but...better than nothing.

 

[tailwagging]

you can also explain that with rabbit feet the way they are, they are always walking on carpet.

I will go read the other thread

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

LOL, I shocked my dad the other day...he asked if the wire ever hurts their pawpads. I told him they don't have any, and he looked at me like I was insane. I showed him pictures (we were at his house so I couldn't just go grab a bunny to demonstrate) and he was totally flabbergasted. :lol: It isn't every day that there's something I know that he doesn't, so it was pretty funny.

That thread in the "Hopping Mad" section about the "broken bunny"........be warned, it's pretty terrible.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

you can also explain that with rabbit feet the way they are, they are always walking on carpet.

:rotfl:

Good point! Plusher carpet than many people can afford!

 

[tailwagging]

LOL, I shocked my dad the other day...he asked if the wire ever hurts their pawpads. I told him they don't have any, and he looked at me like I was insane. I showed him pictures (we were at his house so I couldn't just go grab a bunny to demonstrate) and he was totally flabbergasted. :lol: It isn't every day that there's something I know that he doesn't, so it was pretty funny.

That thread in the "Hopping Mad" section about the "broken bunny"........be warned, it's pretty terrible.

it must be gone. i looked but couldn't find it.

 

[MaggieJ]

We are way off-topic here.

The whole premise that RabbitTalk is founded upon is that rabbits are multi-purpose animals and that we welcome people who raise them for pets, meat, fur, fibre, show or agility training. I may have missed a few. Let's not fall into the trap of only seeing them one way.