Questionable Spots on Liver

[BroodCoop]

Really? You are going to poison all of your rabbits based on this? Absolutely sure that there is no other possible cause of those liver spots?

Wow. Poison the rabbits, condemn and kill the chickens, and dance under a full moon.

 

[mwtrees]

based on factual evidence? No there isn't any other cause that I know of and I see this way to much in the rabbits I process that I get from others. I see it maybe one or 2 times a year on my own. This is a serious issue if one is raising for commercial people use as USDA would reject the entire rabbit even though there isn't anything wrong with the meat.

 

[BroodCoop]

Dance under a full moon and celebrate more new cages with wood under the floor to trap the droppings.

Please discuss your "factual evidence" with trained professionals before you post it as accepted fact.

I really should have waited a couple more posts before I said anything. Someone probably would have posted a suggestion to treat with antibiotics also "just in case".

Buy your poisoned meat at the corporate supermarket.

Drug resistance is epidemic. Now there is a fact for you. Don't play guessing games with drugs.

 

[ladysown]

HUH?

So knowing what a disease is based on experience is not factual?

I'm not sure what you are wanting folks to do here BroodCoop...We are NOT saying medicate willy-nilly. We are giving sound advice based on experience. Isn't that what folk do? Give sound advice based on their experiences which a person may or may not decide to use. I don't think anyone is advocating medicating just for the sake of medicating.

 

[mystang89]

So anyway, I would treat with Corrid to treat the cocci. As far as where to get corrid, I had to look online and order it from...I think Amazon since TSC is essentially useless here and doesn't carry anything.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Dance under a full moon and celebrate more new cages with wood under the floor to trap the droppings.

Please discuss your "factual evidence" with trained professionals before you post it as accepted fact.

BroodCoop,

Reliable advice from experienced breeders IS factual evidence. And, just for the record, MSD's cages are all wire, not wood, with slant boards.

 

[BroodCoop]

Speculation based on anecdotes is not factual information.

People buying sick bunnies shouldn't surprise me anymore.

Drug resistance is epidemic. Now there is a fact for you. Don't play guessing games with drugs.

 

[bowbuild]

Whatever that is I have found is directly related to sanitary conditions in cages. I with time constraints have seen this in my stock, BUT always find a source of fecal matter in which they were in, cages with trace amounts of crap, or nesting boxes that were not kept clean. In the summer when I am super busy with my business my time is very valuable, but if you want clean livered rabbits you better make time for spotless cages or you end up with this!

Bowbuild

 

[MaggieJ]

Dance under a full moon and celebrate more new cages with wood under the floor to trap the droppings.

Please discuss your "factual evidence" with trained professionals before you post it as accepted fact.

I really should have waited a couple more posts before I said anything. Someone probably would have posted a suggestion to treat with antibiotics also "just in case".

Buy your poisoned meat at the corporate supermarket.

Drug resistance is epidemic. Now there is a fact for you. Don't play guessing games with drugs.

Broodcoop, while I agree with you that drug resistance is a major problem for both humans and animals, I have to say that I find your style of expressing your thoughts very abrasive at times. Courtesy and respect for others is expected here at RabbitTalk.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Ladysown, thank you for specifying to get liquid Corrid- TSC only carries the powdered form.

I am going to give the rabbits pine tree trimmings to munch on for now, and will be carefully inspecting the livers of rabbits I process this week. I may also do a fecal float, since I have access to a microscope, but will have to find out if anything special in the way of stains, etc., is required.

Broodcoop, my rabbits have been medicated exactly once... when I found pinworms in two rabbits I processed out of 16. Trust me- I do not medicate on a whim. In fact, my kids who are 16, 14, and 10 have rarely ever even taken antibiotics- maybe six times all total combined, and I believe the youngest has never had any at all. I am the last person you have to worry about misusing pharmaceutical drugs.

BowBuild, I don't think cleanliness was an issue.

Here are some pics of the as yet uncleaned pen:



The inside of their BunnyBucket:



Feeder:



Close up of wire:



Stuck feces:



Thanks for the input, everybody. I will update y'all with my findings as they occur.

 

[ollitos]

This has been a very informative thread. We have liver spots show up from time to time. Yes, TSC is useless. They never had stuff I need in stock. Thanks for the Amazon tip for finding Corrid.

 

[mystang89]

Wow, your unclean pens make my clean pens look like a garbage heap.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Wow, your unclean pens make my clean pens look like a garbage heap.

I specialize in tidy rabbits.

 

[bowbuild]

Mamma,

I use a bleach, scrub, then torch the pen. It's not great for the wire but it sure kills most everything. I was not trying to imply you had dirty cages by the way, and I hope you didn't take it that way.

Bowbuild

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Mamma,

I use a bleach, scrub, then torch the pen. It's not great for the wire but it sure kills most everything.

I normally use vinegar and dishsoap or Betadine. We have a torch which I will be using on my Jersey Wooly cages to burn off the wool if necessary.

I was not trying to imply you had dirty cages by the way, and I hope you didn't take it that way.

Bowbuild

No offense taken- it is a valid point that a dirty habitat will increase the likelihood of problems. No doubt you have seen pictures of my set up and know that I keep a clean rabbitry, so I didn't feel it was a direct judgement.

I posted the pics more to show that there wasn't any evidence of diarrhea in the pen, except for that one clinging piece of poop. It is also good evidence against the ARA's that poor sanitation is always the cause when we see abnormalities in the liver or poor general condition.

Not shown in the pics is the water bucket with a valve and the hay-rack, so there is no possibility of secondary contamination from soiled hay or water crocks.

There were five rabbits housed in a 3' x 3-1/2' foot cage, so I don't feel they were overcrowded.

What disturbs me the most is that there were no clinical signs of illness. If I had not processed that rabbit I would never have suspected anything was wrong with it.

 

[BroodCoop]

A veterinarian would NEVER make a diagnosis based on those pictures ... but someone on the internet did.

Was that abrasive?

 

[ladysown]

So Basically what you are saying is that experience counts for nothing.

Therefore taking that in account....If a person were to get the flu or a cold they shouldn't think they have a flu or a cold but should instead go into the doctor to get that confirmed? Or if a rabbit gets earmites they should be taken into the verternarian to get that confirmed? That is in essence what you are saying. That all illnesses need to be confirmed by a professional before the diagnosis can be accepted.

When illnesses are obvious, one does not need to get medical advice.

When illness are unsure, then one might wish to gain medical advice. For instance, a sneezing rabbit with snot, most likely has pasturella BUT to be sure, one should get several nose swabs done of several rabbits and bring those into the vet for diagnosis as it might be bordatella, pasturella or a stap infection. OR one can simply cull those affected rabbits. It's a choice on behalf of the owner.

A coccidia infection of the liver is obvious in how it presents. It looks different than liver flukes. It presents just like the pictures MSD gave us. It's one of those "obvious" illnesses based on condition of the liver. Coccidia infection of the intestines presents differently and a fecal exam is most helpful then to determine if it's worms or coccidia going on. Different illnesses require a different approach in diagnosis, and sometimes experience does indeed matter.

I appreciate BroodCoop that you want people to be careful, but there needs to be an awareness that experience matters as well. Vets aren't the only ones who know things about animal husbandry. <br /><br />__________ Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:31 am __________<br /><br />

What disturbs me the most is that there were no clinical signs of illness. If I had not processed that rabbit I would never have suspected anything was wrong with it.

You are not the first person to have this situation MSD. I occasionally have need to take in rabbits to help me fill an order for dog/snake food customers. Rabbits can come in looking and acting perfectly normal and then ACK.. horrid liver(s). I tell folks to medicate their herd for coccidia (folks have been surprised by the news, I show them a liver if possible) and next time I get rabbits from them (after they medicate and I wait about 4 months) the livers are clean.

I find generally in anything older than 8 weeks you simply have no clue if you have a coccidia problem. Younger than that you'll have kits that look unwell or unthrifty.

 

[BroodCoop]

So Basically what you are saying is that experience counts for nothing.

That is more than just a little bit hyperbolic and I am supposed to respect your judgement more now?

If your ego and emotions are the subject here then another professional should be consulted for those issues. Please leave that aside.

Drug all of the rabbits because one has a spot on the liver? Seriously? Then what? Sure you are not throwing gas on a fire?

 

[Miss M]

BroodCoop, the behavior you are exhibiting is not permitted here.

From welcome-to-rabbittalk-t31.html :

This is a friendly, inclusive forum and members are expected to show respect and tolerance for others. Please express yourself civilly, even when you disagree. The moderators will delete or edit inappropriate posts and posters of such will be warned.

A quick review of your posts in this thread reveals that if anyone is being hyperbolic, it is you.

Most veterinarians do not know as much about the care of rabbits as experienced rabbit raisers do. Yes, they could do a lab test to confirm that this is coccidiosis (of course, the vet would probably just look at the liver and say it's coccidiosis). But when enough people have had the test done, and the combined experience of breeders on here says that livers that look like that have coccidiosis (even to the point of being able to differentiate between this and other liver conditions), then there is nothing wrong with them saying so. And there is nothing wrong with the person who asked acting on this advice. Not everything requires a vet.

 

[BroodCoop]

You don't know which rabbits needed treatment, if any. In following you don't know which rabbits responded to treatment, if any.

This hasn't been a rational discussion from the beginning. The use of drugs as prescribed in this thread is not based on proven means.

Probably all rabbits and certainly almost all rabbits carry coccidia. The notion that it can spread like wildfire is a fallacy. How can it spread to rabbits that already have it?

__________ Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:57 pm __________

What did I say that was hyperbolic? Exactly?

__________ Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:01 pm __________

Agricultural abuse of drugs is responsible for "superbugs" that have killed thousands or tens of thousands of people. Maybe someone you knew and loved.

__________ Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:07 pm __________

I am sorry that I stepped on toes but I can't say I am sorry for anything that I said. I'll go back and read again when I get time.

__________ Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:23 pm __________

I think the underlying problem here is that people pay too much for rabbits and feel like they can't afford to cull them. I don't take rabbits to vets and I don't buy rabbits I can't afford to cull. I also don't breed rabbits that cannot live without drugs.