Question about cream/fawn

[ida1416]

This may raise the blood pressure of people who hate using color names, especially across breeds. So I don't understand the difference between the color "cream" or "fawn" and the genetics behind it. In another thread we had discussed how my little lionhead buck appeared to be an orange agouti with the cream gene. And he may get lighter with age as he's only 2.5 months. But he has a darker nose and ear linings as well as a warm orangey hue all over especially in his shorter-furred areas. He has warm brown eyes but some of his siblings had gray eyes. I'm not sure what color he would be called. Orange or cream. Neither of his parents look cream but more like regular oranges. Contrasted against this 3 month old holland lop doe who would definitely be called cream/fawn as she's got that classic look. And all white linings, no dark fur anywhere. No orange hue either. She has gray-brown eyes. So what's the deal here What is the difference between the cream gene vs the cream color? Is "rufus" playing a role? Is it as simple as dilute vs non-dilute? But then why would some of the lionhead's siblings have had gray eyes? What's the difference between these two? Am I completely bonkers? Obviously terminology for colors is super unreliable. So feel free to explain using genotypes if that's easier.

Thank you for putting up with all my questions

 

[judymac]

This is such a good question. Let's start at the beginning:
The eye rings show that this rabbit has the dominant 'A' gene for agouti. That means the rabbit would normally have white inside the ears, white rings around the eyes, white belly and white under the tail. The hair would have bands of color, rings of dark, yellowish, and dark again.

The next gene to consider is the 'E' extension gene. This one determines how those dark bands will be extended along the hairshaft. There are five different options for this gene, in descending order of dominance. Dominant black 'E(D)' is a rare one, that makes the whole hair look dark instead of banded, found in only a few breeds, so we'll skip on by this one. The next one is steel E(s), that stretches the dark color out from the skin, leaving the yellow band hanging on to the tip, which is why they are called gold-tipped steels. Normal extension 'E' simply allows the agouti bands to be normal, in the normal proportions, like a Castor/Chestnut agouti. Harlequin 'e(j)' instead of putting the colors on bands on a hairshaft, puts the colors in patches on the skin, like a calico cat. The most recessive option, and the one that applies to you, is called non-extension 'ee'. In this choice, the dark bands don't extend down the hair at all, which is why it is called non-extension. Only the yellow shades go down the hairshaft.

When you blend agouti 'A' with non-extension 'ee', you get the family of rabbit colors you are talking about--red/orange/fawn/cream. As you have noted, different breeds use different terms to describe these colors. Genetically, red is A-ee and rufus (reddish) modifiers. Eyes brown.
Orange (called fawn in angora rabbits) is A-ee without the rufus. Eyes brown.
The dilute color fawn (called cream in angora rabbits) is A-ee plus the recessive dilute gene dd. Generally, dilute rabbits have grayish eyes instead of brown.

Orange/cream/fawn newborn kits are born pink. Red kits are a darker pink. At only a few days old you'll see the white inside the ears, showing they are agouti based colors. That is the easy part, determining that a rabbit carries non-extension orange/cream/fawn. Here's why you are having trouble--there are various modifiers that determine how dark or pale the rabbit's fiber will be. Longer fibers tend to be paler, you'll see that on the lionhead. There can be a wide variation in shades, some high rufus reds will be dark like an Irish Setter dog, some creams so pale they barely have any color at all. A dark cream might look just like a pale orange. Eye color helps, as dilutes often have the grayer eye.

 

[Alaska Satin]

This may raise the blood pressure of people who hate using color names, especially across breeds. So I don't understand the difference between the color "cream" or "fawn" and the genetics behind it. In another thread we had discussed how my little lionhead buck appeared to be an orange agouti with the cream gene. And he may get lighter with age as he's only 2.5 months. But he has a darker nose and ear linings as well as a warm orangey hue all over especially in his shorter-furred areas. He has warm brown eyes but some of his siblings had gray eyes. I'm not sure what color he would be called. Orange or cream. Neither of his parents look cream but more like regular oranges. Contrasted against this 3 month old holland lop doe who would definitely be called cream/fawn as she's got that classic look. And all white linings, no dark fur anywhere. No orange hue either. She has gray-brown eyes. So what's the deal here What is the difference between the cream gene vs the cream color? Is "rufus" playing a role? Is it as simple as dilute vs non-dilute? But then why would some of the lionhead's siblings have had gray eyes? What's the difference between these two? Am I completely bonkers? Obviously terminology for colors is super unreliable. So feel free to explain using genotypes if that's easier.

Thank you for putting up with all my questions

@judymac does a good job of laying out what produces the colors.

So, there is no cream gene, per se.

Orange (and red, which is genetically the same, other than having additional rufus modifiers) is a non-extension chestnut agouti (or non-extension chocolate agouti, but for this discusison that doesn't really matter):
A_ ?? C_ D_ ee ww
These colors usually include wideband genes <ww>.

In the breeds that recognize it, Cream refers to dilute orange so A_ ?? C_ dd ee ww.

Fawn is the trickiest word. It can mean the same thing genetically as red and orange <A_??C_D_ee ww>, with varying amounts of rufus modifiers. Generally the most modifiers = red, fewer =orange, low rufus = fawn.

For example, in Flemish Giants the variety known as Fawn is non-extension chestnut agouti aka orange A_ ?? C_ D_ ee ww.

The angora breeds recognize Fawn, as above, plus two more non-extension chestnut agouti varieties: Cream (dilute <dd> orange), and Red (in essence, high-rufus red). All together these three varieties are known as the Wide Band Group.

French, English and Mini Lop SOPs recognize four non-extension chestnut agouti varieties (also called the Wide Band Group): Cream (dilute <dd> orange), Fawn (low-rufus orange), Orange, and Red (in essence, high-rufus red).

Sometimes these colors are expressed genotypically with plusses for the modifiers, e.g.
Red = A_??C_D_ee ww ++++
Orange = A_??C_D_ee ww +
Fawn = A_??C_D_ee

However, in other breeds (e.g. Netherland Dwarfs, American Fuzzy Lops) Fawn is the name for what is genetically a cream, aka dilute orange.

To make it even more complicated, English Spots have a variety called "Gold" which I as far as I can tell is a low-rufus orange.

So, to summarize: "orange" is always a dense color, "cream" is always a dilute, and "fawn" may be either one or the other, depending on the breed.

As far as naming your lionhead's color, it's a toss-up since the breed SOP neither recognizes nor has a COD for any of those varieties (orange, fawn or cream). In the original post he looked pretty pale, but I'd probably go with orange in this photo, since looking at his eye color and the relatively rich orange on his face and back, he is not apparently a dilute (aka cream); and in other breeds, "fawn" often indicates dilute, while "orange" does not.

His siblings, having blue-gray eyes, may have been creams (but not oranges, since dilutes would have that eye color). I think we knew that the sire was <Dd> so he could have produced both oranges and creams with the smoke pearl <dd> dam. SO, when you say "orange agouti with the cream gene" maybe you were referring to orange carrying dilute, which I would agree with: he's orange, therefore <D>, but he definitely carries one copy of the dilute <d> from his smoke pearl dam.

Like @judymac points out, the colors called orange or cream can vary greatly in intensity, so a washed-out orange can look "creamy" colored, while a smutty high-rufus cream (imagine a dilute smutty red) could look fairly orange and have darker tips (smut) on nose and ears. In that regard, I'm not sure that I'd even call that little Holland a cream from looking at that one photo - if she has dark eyes, as it appears on my screen, she could be a washed-out orange. (Or, she could be a cream with an eye color DQ...)

 

[ida1416]

@judymac does a good job of laying out what produces the colors.

So, there is no cream gene, per se.

Orange (and red, which is genetically the same, other than having additional rufus modifiers) is a non-extension chestnut agouti (or non-extension chocolate agouti, but for this discusison that doesn't really matter):
A_ ?? C_ D_ ee ww
These colors usually include wideband genes <ww>.

In the breeds that recognize it, Cream refers to dilute orange so A_ ?? C_ dd ee ww.

Fawn is the trickiest word. It can mean the same thing genetically as red and orange <A_??C_D_ee ww>, with varying amounts of rufus modifiers. Generally the most modifiers = red, fewer =orange, low rufus = fawn.

For example, in Flemish Giants the variety known as Fawn is non-extension chestnut agouti aka orange A_ ?? C_ D_ ee ww.

The angora breeds recognize Fawn, as above, plus two more non-extension chestnut agouti varieties: Cream (dilute <dd> orange), and Red (in essence, high-rufus red). All together these three varieties are known as the Wide Band Group.

French, English and Mini Lop SOPs recognize four non-extension chestnut agouti varieties (also called the Wide Band Group): Cream (dilute <dd> orange), Fawn (low-rufus orange), Orange, and Red (in essence, high-rufus red).

Sometimes these colors are expressed genotypically with plusses for the modifiers, e.g.
Red = A_??C_D_ee ww ++++
Orange = A_??C_D_ee ww +
Fawn = A_??C_D_ee

However, in other breeds (e.g. Netherland Dwarfs, American Fuzzy Lops) Fawn is the name for what is genetically a cream, aka dilute orange.

To make it even more complicated, English Spots have a variety called "Gold" which I as far as I can tell is a low-rufus orange.

So, to summarize: "orange" is always a dense color, "cream" is always a dilute, and "fawn" may be either one or the other, depending on the breed.

As far as naming your lionhead's color, it's a toss-up since the breed SOP neither recognizes nor has a COD for any of those varieties (orange, fawn or cream). In the original post he looked pretty pale, but I'd probably go with orange in this photo, since looking at his eye color and the relatively rich orange on his face and back, he is not apparently a dilute (aka cream); and in other breeds, "fawn" often indicates dilute, while "orange" does not.

His siblings, having blue-gray eyes, may have been creams (but not oranges, since dilutes would have that eye color). I think we knew that the sire was <Dd> so he could have produced both oranges and creams with the smoke pearl <dd> dam. SO, when you say "orange agouti with the cream gene" maybe you were referring to orange carrying dilute, which I would agree with: he's orange, therefore <D>, but he definitely carries one copy of the dilute <d> from his smoke pearl dam.

Like @judymac points out, the colors called orange or cream can vary greatly in intensity, so a washed-out orange can look "creamy" colored, while a smutty high-rufus cream (imagine a dilute smutty red) could look fairly orange and have darker tips (smut) on nose and ears. In that regard, I'm not sure that I'd even call that little Holland a cream from looking at that one photo - if she has dark eyes, as it appears on my screen, she could be a washed-out orange. (Or, she could be a cream with an eye color DQ...)

Okay that makes a lot of sense. The lionhead looked really pale for a while there but I've been thinking he looks a lot more like an orange these days. I'll have to see how it continues to change. He by the way was out of an orange doe not the smoke pearl doe. So perhaps both his parents were Dd and that's why some of his siblings were dilute but he isn't and his parents dont present that way.
I checked again and the holland doe does have dilute eyes, they almost look olive color in the daylight. The lighting in the room is just very warm and not super bright so contrast is high.

 

[ida1416]

This is such a good question. Let's start at the beginning:
The eye rings show that this rabbit has the dominant 'A' gene for agouti. That means the rabbit would normally have white inside the ears, white rings around the eyes, white belly and white under the tail. The hair would have bands of color, rings of dark, yellowish, and dark again.

The next gene to consider is the 'E' extension gene. This one determines how those dark bands will be extended along the hairshaft. There are five different options for this gene, in descending order of dominance. Dominant black 'E(D)' is a rare one, that makes the whole hair look dark instead of banded, found in only a few breeds, so we'll skip on by this one. The next one is steel E(s), that stretches the dark color out from the skin, leaving the yellow band hanging on to the tip, which is why they are called gold-tipped steels. Normal extension 'E' simply allows the agouti bands to be normal, in the normal proportions, like a Castor/Chestnut agouti. Harlequin 'e(j)' instead of putting the colors on bands on a hairshaft, puts the colors in patches on the skin, like a calico cat. The most recessive option, and the one that applies to you, is called non-extension 'ee'. In this choice, the dark bands don't extend down the hair at all, which is why it is called non-extension. Only the yellow shades go down the hairshaft.

When you blend agouti 'A' with non-extension 'ee', you get the family of rabbit colors you are talking about--red/orange/fawn/cream. As you have noted, different breeds use different terms to describe these colors. Genetically, red is A-ee and rufus (reddish) modifiers. Eyes brown.
Orange (called fawn in angora rabbits) is A-ee without the rufus. Eyes brown.
The dilute color fawn (called cream in angora rabbits) is A-ee plus the recessive dilute gene dd. Generally, dilute rabbits have grayish eyes instead of brown.

Orange/cream/fawn newborn kits are born pink. Red kits are a darker pink. At only a few days old you'll see the white inside the ears, showing they are agouti based colors. That is the easy part, determining that a rabbit carries non-extension orange/cream/fawn. Here's why you are having trouble--there are various modifiers that determine how dark or pale the rabbit's fiber will be. Longer fibers tend to be paler, you'll see that on the lionhead. There can be a wide variation in shades, some high rufus reds will be dark like an Irish Setter dog, some creams so pale they barely have any color at all. A dark cream might look just like a pale orange. Eye color helps, as dilutes often have the grayer eye.

Thank you this helped organize things in my brain so much. I think the point you made about the lionheads mane being a different color is good because his "normal" fur definitely just looks orange and it is more the mane that is the paler color and the eyes being a warm non-diluted brown seem to seal the deal!