Questiions about 2 does

[Rainey]

I wrote in another thread about the failures we've had in this year's breeding schedule. Have a couple more questions I forgot to ask there.
The proven doe that raised 3 litters successfully in 2015 and 2016 didn't kindle (although she did build a nest and pull fur) after her first breeding. She was very unwilling to be rebred. There was one possible mounting but she was really uncooperative even though she looked ready for breeding and we tried her several times. Because of the one possible mount we gave her another month and it was the same thing--nest, fur, no kits. She is just 2 years old and has had just 6 litters. She's headed for the crockpot but before that I wanted to ask if anyone has any suggestions what we should be looking for to cause her failure to breed this year, anything we should be thinking about or looking for at butchering.
Garland, the second of our first timers, kindled 9 this morning. She even got the nest and fur and kits in the nest right the first time. But she's growling a lot. Has been ever since we bred her a month ago. Not something she did before that. She also began at the same time to lunge at anyone reaching into her cage. We stopped that by gently holding her head and shoulders down when she did it. But I wonder about the change in her disposition and if we should expect it to fade when her hormones settle down. We wouldn't keep a rabbit that bites us, but she never went that far and we seem to have convinced her not to lunge. I've heard of rabbits being temperamental when of breeding age but not yet bred. Is it normal to have a doe get this way as a result of being bred?
It was snowing here this morning and I felt a bit like growing and lunging but managed to refrain. Just thankful now for a healthy litter and hoping she feeds them through this first week or two.

 

[Sagebrush]

I have never personally had a doe like this. However I have seen does that will act like this when they have a litter, but return to their normal temperament after the litter is taken away once weaned. All I can suggest is when she is being nice, reward. When she is being a little snit, make her be nice. Then just wait and see. If she stays the same after weaning then I would send her to freezer camp.

 

[shazza]

most of my does get moody when they're pregnant. one gets very protective of her kits until they are weaned then she goes back to normal. one doe is just cage aggressive in general. usually after the first few days the hormones calm down and they go back to being sweet bunnies again (except the protective one and the aggressive one.) i'd give her a couple days or at least until the kits are weaned. mom hormones are weird and i wouldn't consider it indicative of her "real" personality.

 

[DaytonHillRabbits]

I have one doe who is an absolute **** when she's bred or has a litter. She's slightly less aggressive when she's weaned her litter... she growls, snarls and lunges and though she hasn't connected yet I've no doubt she would bite if she could. I mostly ignore her antics. I reach in and take out the nest box like I do with everyone else, if she lunges I retaliate by pushing her back or growling back at her, she only pushes her luck so far. Funny enough, she's the worst at feeding time, she guards her empty bowl like a possessed creature, will box at the full feed scoop as if she's trying to prevent me from filling the dish before she dives in and eats like she's been starved to death. Honestly, she's a foolish little rabbit, but she's a great mother and she makes very pretty harlequin and magpie colored kits so I've kept her. If she ever seriously ATTACHED herself to me she'd be gone.

 

[Rainey]

I'd be more reluctant to keep her if we weren't looking at other problems this year. The other first time doe had a litter of 8 and lost them all when she suddenly went off her feed in the middle of their first week. And one of our proven does that I was depending on for 3 litters this year and perhaps next is headed to freezer camp after failing to produce and being unwilling to be rebred. So right now kindling 9 all in the nest box and with lots of fur gives her some leeway.
She's been growling ever since she was bred. Growled more the day the other young doe kindled right across the aisle from her. And lots of growling today but no lunging, even when we took the box out to check the kits and clean out the soiled hay. Hope she makes plenty of milk and eases off on the growling.

 

[MaggieJ]

On the doe headed for the crockpot, look for any abnormalities of the organs but especially take note of how much fat is in her body cavity.

I'd reserve judgment on the aggressive doe, unless you have other known producers to use instead. If she is a good mother otherwise, you can work around her moodiness. A flat piece of wood can be used to block her while you pull out the nest box or feed and water her. I once had a doe that was horrible from kindling until the kits eyes opened. After that she was fine. We eventually culled her, but it was for other reasons than her aggressiveness.

 

[Rainey]

Just a quick update--the growler screamed this morning when her nest box was taken out for a kit check, but she didn't interfere and was growling less than yesterday. Saw some very full bellies and none that looked unfed.
I realized that it is harder to offer "treats"( as is suggested as a distraction when removing the nest box or to reward good behaviour) when feeding as we do. They get such a variety of green stuff on a regular basis and are free fed after kindling and offered more favorites such as parsley.

 

[UFCreel]

I also have a Red New Zealand doe. That is a very good mom. Mean as all get out. Will scratch and bite. But throws wonderful healthy kits. Once the kits are weaned. She becomes a very affectionate rabbit again. With her i just put on a long sleeved shirt and a glove. Had a Golden Retriever that was the nicest girl. But once she had puppy's. My wife and i were the only ones she would let near them. Once the puppy's grew out. She was just lovable again. I don't think its a big deal. Have known a few human women that were very protective of their children. I think it is what God intended.

 

[MaggieJ]

Glad your doe is showing signs of settling down, Rainey.

One treat my naturally-fed rabbits enjoyed was what we called "bunny croutons." I'd take a slice of good-quality, whole-grain bread, quarter it, quarter the quarters, and air dry it until hard. The amount they got was small, but their pleasure in it was disproportionately great.

 

[Ferra]

My older doe, Mithril, has been a growling, raking, kit protecting menace for her first two litters with me. It tends to start about a week before kindling, and tapers off somewhere around day 6 after.

But NOW she's decided to switch up her routine for the third litter. She started nest building and haystaching around day 21-22 (never haystached before, never built a nest that early before), she's always been a bit stand-offish, but now she's begging for treats like a crazy-rabbit. And despite her previous tendency to rake me into hamburger meat, she's not so much as hunkered and growled at me, let alone tried to rake me.

I assumed, at first, that it had to be a false pregnancy. But here at day 30 she's still working on that nest. It's now a popper-palace and lined with a 1" layer of fur. So I guess this behavior isn't necessarily permanent in any given doe.

I'd been threatening to replace Mithril at my earliest opportunity, but I wasn't expecting this sea change in behavior.

(I also wasn't expecting her half-sister to give me a full on, no holds barred bite four weeks ago. *sigh* Onyx apparently will do nothing and just hunker until she snaps. That day, taking her out of her cage for breeding was a line too far, apparently but unlike Mithril, she didn't do me the courtesy of warning me off first. So I'll take the rabbit that warns me that I'm pushing her buttons over the one that doesn't. Onyx gets to raise this litter, assuming she kindles in the next few days, and then she moves out of the "barn" - one of her daughters from her last litter is slated to replace her.)

 

[hotzcatz]

We breed for temperament, but ours are angoras and get handled a lot so they have to have a nice temperament. I'll select for temperament over conformation, but generally wool quality first. The babies get handled within minutes of birth and the mum bun doesn't care as she had the same thing happen to her as a newborn.

We've had a lot of trouble with litters not showing up and I'm suspecting it's the new methods they have of harvesting alfalfa. In 2011, I think it was, they approved the use of a herbicide spray to 'ripen' the alfalfa fields all at the same time. So the field is sprayed with herbicide, it dies off - oh, sorry, it 'ripens' all at the same time and then it's harvested and made into feed. Which we then feed our animals and sometimes the herbicide is still there in the composted manure and kills off people's plants when they use it on their garden. (I found out about this on a garden forum. They were really upset about it.)

Thinking anything that would kill a garden can't be good for rabbit fertility (and the fertility rates had gone from 80% in 2010 to around 11% was it in 2016? I'd have to go look at the numbers again) anyway the fertility rate had dropped significantly as well as litter size. I switched to organic alfalfa pellets in mid-April and already have a litter now. It's still too early to be somewhat certain, though, since it was only one doe out of the five who were bred who had a litter, although she'd been on the organic diet a little longer than the others before she had the kits. There's four more bred who are now on the organic diet for their entire pregnancy, and one doe who had been on the new diet for several weeks before hand. We will see if it makes a difference.

I'd been using the same brand of pellets for years, but they don't ask the farmers how the alfalfa is grown, they just leave it up to the farmers to meet the USDA and food and safety and whatever else laws regarding how to grow crops.

So ask your feed store if they have any feeds that aren't GMO and haven't been harvested with the herbicides. Try feeding your rabbits that for awhile and see if the litters appear.

 

[Rainey]

On the doe headed for the crockpot, look for any abnormalities of the organs but especially take note of how much fat is in her body cavity.

I'd reserve judgment on the aggressive doe, unless you have other known producers to use instead. If she is a good mother otherwise, you can work around her moodiness. A flat piece of wood can be used to block her while you pull out the nest box or feed and water her. I once had a doe that was horrible from kindling until the kits eyes opened. After that she was fine. We eventually culled her, but it was for other reasons than her aggressiveness.

It's been a while but finally despatched the older doe Friday and you were right Maggie--lots of fat in the body cavity, hard to find the kidneys, but no extra fat under the skin so she didn't feel fat. I was surprised that she'd put on that much fat the way we feed--no pellets. Have to think again about how to avoid that sort of fat build-up.
And the growler has really settled down and seems to be a good mother. She kindled 9 and we culled one on the second day when we noticed hind legs not working properly, just dragging. And she lost one that didn't seem to be getting anything to eat even when we divided the litter for a couple feedings. But the remaining 7 are out of the nest box, eyes open, growing well.

 

[alforddm]

We've had a lot of trouble with litters not showing up and I'm suspecting it's the new methods they have of harvesting alfalfa. In 2011, I think it was, they approved the use of a herbicide spray to 'ripen' the alfalfa fields all at the same time. So the field is sprayed with herbicide, it dies off - oh, sorry, it 'ripens' all at the same time and then it's harvested and made into feed. Which we then feed our animals and sometimes the herbicide is still there in the composted manure and kills off people's plants when they use it on their garden. (I found out about this on a garden forum. They were really upset about it.)

I've seen you mention this several times. Do you have any references for this? The reason I'm asking is that this generally isn't how alfalfa (or any type of hay) is harvested. The hay is cut while still green and growing, left to dry for varying amounts of time according to the weather, and then bailed.

Now, wheat is ripened with glyphosate sometimes before harvest but to the best of my knowledge alfalfa isn't. <br /><br /> __________ Mon May 22, 2017 5:04 pm __________ <br /><br /> Well, I stand somewhat corrected. There is a GMO alfalfa.

The USDA re-approved the GE Roundup-Ready alfalfa for planting in 2011.

The roundup is used to control weeds however, not to ready the alfalfa for harvest. Semantics really as it's still gmo.

 

[MaggieJ]

It's been a while but finally despatched the older doe Friday and you were right Maggie--lots of fat in the body cavity, hard to find the kidneys, but no extra fat under the skin so she didn't feel fat. I was surprised that she'd put on that much fat the way we feed--no pellets. Have to think again about how to avoid that sort of fat build-up.

If you are feeding grain, consider cutting it back to a minimum except in winter. It can cause as much fat build-up as pellets. I believe that it is the carbs that do it--in the wild, rabbits would have only very limited access to grain. I do think that a bit of grain is helpful especially in the colder months, but not too much.

 

[Rainey]

We're not feeding grain except to grow-outs and nursing does. And sometimes in winter if it goes really cold we feed some for a couple days. The wheat we feed during winter is grown out into fodder--so that the green part is 2 or 3 inches high. I didn't think it had as much calories then. We do feed some roots in winter and perhaps should cut down on those. Just surprised me because she'd been fed the same way the winters before she bred and kindled easily--guess it must have been accumulating?

 

[MaggieJ]

Rainey, if you're not feeding grain (fodder ranks with the forage) then I don't think it's your feeding regimen that caused the excess fat.

Towards the end of our rabbit keeping, I turned the daily feeding over to my son, MidnightCoder, because of my mobility problems. He has a more generous hand than I do and when we sent all the rabbits to camp a few months later, the does were just filled with fat. I blamed the extra grain.

The buck, Pudge, who started life as an over-fed singleton kit, hadn't a spare ounce of fat on him, however, so perhaps the grain was not the problem--or perhaps grain just wasn't his thing. They were in a colony and it's harder to tell who is eating what.

I wonder if does tend to accumulate fat due to hormonal influences? Perhaps as they age a bit, their metabolisms change. Sort of a "middle-age spread" effect? It would be interesting to know more about this.