Plush Lops - Mini Lops - Astrex coats...

[Zass]

I can post some of curly pictures the breeder sent me tomorrow if you want to see them. The coat changes completely from youth to adult

that is fine with permission from the breeder(of course).
I am familiar with the coat change, as I've seen it up close a few time myself

 

[Susie570]

The one she posted looked very different from that coat! :shock:
I don't know what she has going on, but it's interesting.

 

[Zass]

My velveteens had a way of starting curly, and growing up sleek like this:




The curled plush lops should have a satin -like sheen to their coats.

__________ Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:54 pm __________

Like this:

or these ones:

http://s249.photobucket.com/user/HelgaD ... 5.jpg.html
http://s249.photobucket.com/user/HelgaD ... 8.jpg.html

Go ahead and scroll through those while you are at it...Some great images there.

 

[Susie570]

I've asked her if I could share the pictures she sent me. It's a very curly tort kit whose coat color and texture changed completely as it grew. The end result texture looked more like the broken rabbit in the middle.

 

[alforddm]

I was hoping you would get curious....and maybe use some of your excellent research-sorting skills to help my cause.

I don't think much recent research has been done on rabbit coats. Let me see what I can find....

__________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:21 am __________

I don't have access to this one unfortunately. It's old 1930's but those types of studies are often helpful.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02982518

One on curly coated cats. It is often useful to study similar phenotypes in other species as they are very often caused by mutations in the same gene(s).
http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130617/ ... 02000.html

Hmmm those dogs in mexico that don't have hair. I forget what they are called. They do have some health affects associated with the mutation. Missing teeth being one.
ahh found it. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/321/5895/1462.long You have to register for the site but it's free to read.

That one is interesting and "could" have implication for rabbits that exhibit balding/hair loss. The dogs dogs have missing teeth and the mutation is embryonic lethal when homozygous which indicates a fairly serious mutation in a vital gene.

Another one in dogs that could have implication in rabbits. It discusses how just three genes account for most of the coat types in dogs. Again, this could apply to rabbits because similar phenotypes often have similar genotypes in different species. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5949/150.full Same journal you have to register but it's free to read.

This is the actual article published by Texas A&M in Kingsville on their hairless rabbit experiment with Fuzz.
https://www.animalsciencepublications.o ... h-result=1
The article doesn't mention any health effects, so, I'm going to assume their aren't any with this particular mutation. They also didn't try to sequence the DNA to find the mutation so we don't know for sure if it is the same gene as hairlessness in dogs.

Ok, please understand that this is very preliminary cursory scan of information, but I believe you are on to something with the fading kit syndrome being related to the hairlessness. Doing a bit of digging on the Fox family of genes I found this http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/t-cell ... -dystrophy

Did you ever notice abnormal nail growth in any of your affected kits? <br /><br /> __________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:42 am __________ <br /><br /> And more...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/8456

Mutations in the winged-helix transcription factor gene at the nude locus in mice and rats produce the pleiotropic phenotype of hairlessness and athymia, resulting in a severely compromised immune system. This gene is orthologous to the mouse and rat genes and encodes a similar DNA-binding transcription factor that is thought to regulate keratin gene expression. A mutation in this gene has been correlated with T-cell immunodeficiency, the skin disorder congenital alopecia, and nail dystrophy. Alternative splicing in the 5' UTR of this gene has been observed. [provided by RefSeq, Jul 2008]

Ok Zass, now you have to get your hands on a fading KIT and see if it lacks a thymus glad. :lol: :lol: :x :twisted:

 

[Zass]

I've had 3 litters of affected kits. Only a few faded, but all were plagued with health problems. Mainly digestive troubles (which could mean any part of the rabbit was affected, this includes gi stasis and the only true case of bloat I've ever experienced. This wouldn't be a surprise IF I hadn't had plenty of other rabbits that were exposed to the velveteens and never had problems.) I'm pretty good at troubleshooting rabbit digestive systems, but these are cases where no amount of optimum diet, rabbit-specific probiotics, or supportive care was able to help. More obviously kits from each litter had swollen lymph nodes. Some swollen so huge as to disfigure their faces. Having seen images online of swollen lymph nodes pressing on their eyes...I didn't let that go any further, and euthanized them.

The nail growth was normal.

Any idea what a rabbit thymus gland looks like???? :?

The other species comparison that comes to mind is actually the curl gene that is carried by devon cats, as it is RECESSIVE to the hairlessness gene found in sphinx cats. Breeders were eventually advised not to cross the two for hairless cats, as the curl gene caused a lot of health problems....so I've heard. Now I need to find something to back that up...

 

[Sagebrush]

The thymus gland is exceedingly small on the rabbit. In only that it covers just around the lyranx. The next time I go to dispatch some roasters I will take the time to get pictures of it before I completely clean the carcass.

Zass, that lymph node is HUGE! No wonder that one kept fading on you. As for the bloat picture.... That is one that I hope that I never come across in my own kits.... like EVER. It does look like the stomach is bloated as well as the cecum?

 

[Zass]

The thymus gland is exceedingly small on the rabbit. In only that it covers just around the lyranx. The next time I go to dispatch some roasters I will take the time to get pictures of it before I completely clean the carcass.

Zass, that lymph node is HUGE! No wonder that one kept fading on you. As for the bloat picture.... That is one that I hope that I never come across in my own kits.... like EVER. It does look like the stomach is bloated as well as the cecum?

Those kits were OK...more or less, aside from the lymph nodes. They definitely had a noticeable lack of energy.
Spider(from the second litter), became ill with digestive trouble shortly after weaning (at 9 weeks, I think) she was perfectly healthy seeming until then. I never noticed swollen nodes in her. I tried everything I know for her digestive problems, but euthanized right away when I woke up to her being bloated like that

I started the autopsy and took pictures as soon as I knew she was actually gone, as I wanted an accurate photo record of her condition at the time of death, (and not after)


__________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:49 pm __________

Mucky has been a good sport through all of this. She has a huge milk supply for a rabbit her size, and is a great rabbit mother. I'm pretty sure I would have had much less success keeping them alive as long as I've had if it wasn't for her. Actually, I've used her as a foster for meat kits regularly, and that is how I know it is not any kind of pathogen or disease she carries, as her milk has saved many of my runts. MSD recommended that I breed her with another of my rabbits, just to be able to record how that goes, and to give her another chance to be a mom. It would have to be a meat litter only, as I wouldn't want to pet home any rabbits that carried whatever it is that she's passing on. (as there is always a chance they will be re-bred later)

 

[Sagebrush]

I would make the suggestion of using the same buck on her as the other doe. Maybe that way there the genetics are completely different. My hope is that they don't have this happen again. Though if it does happen again then we would know that it is passed from Mucky and is a dominant gene mutation.

 

[Zass]

I would make the suggestion of using the same buck on her as the other doe. Maybe that way there the genetics are completely different. My hope is that they don't have this happen again. Though if it does happen again then we would know that it is passed from Mucky and is a dominant gene mutation.

My meat bucks are a bit large for her. (she's 6.5 lbs) Anyone have a rex or mini rex buck they could stud??? I think using a rex would produce a more accurate test, as it's possible some of the genes in question require rex for expression.

I've used three different Velveteen bucks with Mucky, and have had problems each time.

I've used all three of those velveteen bucks with my meat does with no trouble. One buck, who was said to have been curly as a kit, was bred to a mini rex doe as well, to see if rex was necessary to express the problems.

There was absolutely nothing abnormal about any of those kits. No curly coats, not swollen lymph nodes.
One buck even produced the best growing hybrids I've ever had. (5 lbs at 8 weeks, with Dovetuft)
And...thinking back, I haven't lost a single kit in my MEAT herd to digestive trouble since we lost the one to mucoid enteritis after the corn-in-the-feed incident last spring.

My only meat rabbit mortalities for the past year have been the occasional DOA kit, a runt who was born 1/3 the size of the others and just couldn't compete, and a couple that were pulled out of the nest (until I started bringing all the boxes in during winter months.) and one doe who lost a litter because she simply forgot to pull hair. (chalked up to having brought her in as an adult and being stressed from the move, as she had a good record for Smara, and she has a good litter for me now.)

Only the v-lop kits had a variety of digestive problems, low energy, swollen nodes, etc. One of the oddest problems was the two kits (from two different v-lop bucks and Mucky) who simply could not survive on pellets, and had to be fed on greens, oats, boss, and hay.

__________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:15 pm __________

If it helps put pieces together, I did check livers carefully, and didn't see any sigh of cocci (although I know there are low levels present around here, it hasn't been a problem. )

From a kit I euthanized for swollen nodes:
Liver looks good to me, spleen seems enlarged. The lighting may be contributing to the pale appearance.

__________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:37 pm __________

The woman I bought Mucky from did tell me that she heard other breeders (specifically in the NE US) were getting out of them rapidly due to heath issues, Later I discovered that Mucky's mother was diagnosed by a vet to have some sort of nutrient uptake problem (a rather questionable diagnosis IMO) She was given vitamin shots for a year until she died at age 2.

Now, despite having asked repeatedly, I cannot seem to get any more information from that person. I would really like to know the status of the two doelings she had taken from Mucky's first litter.

 

[Susie570]

Anyone have a rex or mini rex buck they could stud???

I don't know how far this woman is from you with her plush lops, but maybe she would offer a buck if she's not to far. I know they are of a smaller size.
https://www.facebook.com/mvfarmwv

 

[Zass]

Anyone have a rex or mini rex buck they could stud???

I don't know how far this woman is from you with her plush lops, but maybe she would offer a buck if she's not to far. I know they are of a smaller size.
https://www.facebook.com/mvfarmwv

She mentions an F2 and F3 for her rabbits? I wonder if she created her own line?

If so, that is of interesting, as they would be unrelated to all other plush lop and velveteen lines.

I love her photos.

__________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:53 pm __________

I was thinking standard rex or min rex though, not a plush lop...just to make sure the lines are totally unrelated. (absolutely no chance of doubling up recessives)

I'm convinced enough that Mucky carries at least one very harmful gene, whether it's dominant or not is just a curiosity at this point. Nothing out of her should ever be sold or bred.

(Unless it's specifically for research)

 

[Susie570]

she mentions an F2 and F3 for her rabbits? I wonder if she created her own line?

If so, that is of interesting, as they would be unrelated to all other plush lop and velveteen lines.

I love her photos.

I'm not sure, she does have some lovely bunnies though. I think maybe the crowns are kind of tight... I mean they don't really look narrow to me, but they all seem to have ear control (????) She doesn't know a ton about rex genetics, but they seem healthy.

In any case , I'm sure they would not be closely related to mucky.

 

[Zass]

I'll keep tabs on her and maybe consider her as a source of healthy future stock. (Not to ever breed with mine!!!) :lol:
Probably not. I have no luck with purebreds...

I wish I could figure out the specific health issues so that others could learn from my experience.
It sure has been an adventure.

 

[Susie570]

Oh my gosh... what a cute picture though!!

 

[Sagebrush]

Well Zass, I live to far away to let you use Stewpot. Your situation has me stumped. That spleen that you showed was enlarged quite a bit. The rounded edges to it is what tells me it was enlarged. Still I am intrigued with that has been happening and of course now my mind won't let go of the problem...

 

[alforddm]

According to WebMD http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorder ... treatments

One of the causes of an enlarged spleen is

Lymphoma, a cancer of lymph tissue, such as Hodgkin's disease

So, that could very well have been directly related to the enlarged lymph glands.

 

[JenerationX]

*sigh* I want there to be healthy Vlops in the future... but it seems like there's problems just about everywhere.

 

[Zass]

Well Zass, I live to far away to let you use Stewpot. Your situation has me stumped. That spleen that you showed was enlarged quite a bit. The rounded edges to it is what tells me it was enlarged. Still I am intrigued with that has been happening and of course now my mind won't let go of the problem...

I can't seem to let it go either. I have enough experience with rabbits now to know that there is definitely something unusual going on with these ones, and it doesn't have anything to do with diet, husbandry, care, or pathogens. (Since I have a control group of freely exposed, identically fed meat rabbits here)

My best guess is still a genetic predisposition towards lymphoma. My theory is that I simply haven't kept one alive long enough to experience more advanced symptoms.

When you take a look at the eye in the first link...you will see why my kits with the ones with the swollen nodes in their faces were euthanized.

http://www.examiner.com/article/lymphoma-rabbits
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/ ... Rabbit.htm

https://www.vetstream.com/lapis/Content ... m/fre20013

Lymphosarcoma (Lymphoma)



This is malignant tumour which presents itself in the lymphatic tissue and can occur at any age. Tissues more likely to be affected are the liver and kidneys, skin, the spleen, and of course the lymph nodes although any part of the body can have it. It has even been known for the spinal column, cord and surrounding bones to be affected.

Mucky's boy, Sushi (Born in Nov.), is being kept alive, as he was the least affected kit. He has one lymph node that I can feel with a small amount of swelling, and he also displays a severe lack of energy, but otherwise seems healthy. He's being monitored closely...

__________ Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:09 pm __________

I've also been rolling the symptoms of diabetes in rabbits around in my head, as I've heard that was a documented problem in velveteen lops.

For all I know, I've seen BOTH conditions :roll: and that's why I can't sort them out.

 

[Sagebrush]

That very well could be Zass. Now I wonder if because the lines are so close for the Vlops that what is happening is that some of those genetic quirks are doubling and tripling in your kits. That it is on both sides, Mucky and whatever Vlop buck, that you are trying to use.

I have been doing a ton of research on Border Collies since it is a breed that I love and enjoy being around. They have some genetic quirks in them, such as Collie Eye Anomaly. CEA causes a dog that as it ages it goes completely blind. It most often happens to puppies. There is also the fact that if you breed two Merel marked dogs together you will most often end up with a deaf dog, or one that is both blind and deaf.

This is what I am thinking might be going on with the Vlops. That there is some gene that is being amplified when they are bred. What the gene is I do not know. If I had my own lab I would be doing a major experiment on as many Vlops as I could possibly get to see what markers each of those rabbits that express the fading and lymph node enlargement have.