Plush Lops - Mini Lops - Astrex coats...

[Susie570]

Since my hopes of producing any sort of breeder quality MLs with my buck were dashed by being told he has so many faults... I figure I have two ways I can go (since I'm not inclined to just give up on the small-scale breeding thing).

I can either get my buck neutered and get a nice ML buck for breeding (probably the smartest thing to do except I can't find a rabbit savvy vet nearby) or I can leave him intact and breed him for pet quality rabbits and just try to produce the cutest, friendliest, most sellable kits I can. This is my inclination right now.

I would guess it's still smart to try and get a couple of does with, at the very least, as nice crown/ears as I can find and hopefully in the colors I want (probably tri, harli and/or chocolate based).

Here's the main question though, I'm very attracted to these lovely plush lop rabbits that are being raised by someone who is only 2hrs away from where I live. I was just talking to her about the possible coats that I would get from crossing her plush lines with my buck (who has a sort of... I don't ..... really fluffy dense soft coat, which does seem to be dominant genetically). She didn't have any answers for me.

She said she sometimes gets 'curly' (astrex type) kits, but they usually grow into a normal rex coat (and I don't know if she means 'normal' plush?? Or normal Rex type). I will say that I have reservations about Rex genetics, due to the mutations and genetic issues they seem to have fairly often.

I have no clue what type of coats I might end up with. I don't know if genetic issues would be reduced because my buck is NOT a rex coat? Or if I would just never end up with any sort of plush/rex type coats. If that were the case, it seems there would be no point in investing in the plush buns unless I went ahead and purchased a plush buck as well... (cages.. cages... cages...)

Anyway, thoughts??

 

[Dood]

Your buck will never produce rex coated kits.

Rex crossed to regular fur will only produce regular fur, but these kits will be carriers of rex and if crossed to a rex or rex carrier you will start to get rex kits, 50% to 25% respectively.

However, there are NUMEROUS modifiers that are not simple recessive genes that influence the quality of the rex fur and few to none of these recently out crossed rex furred kits will have show quality rex coats but should be alright for pet sales

The Rex furred rabbit issues I believe are specific to velveteen lops and could all come from the English Lop side or only from specific velveteen bloodlines as some people claim they have no issues with fading kits in their Velveteens :shrug:

 

[Susie570]

Very informative answer, Dood! Thank you

As much as I like them, I suppose it's better to stay away from the Plush Lops completely. I'll do well to find a couple of decent ML does. What seems to sell the best here are floppy ears, colorful brokens and those really light frosty-type colors. So I know that I need to look for does that have nice crowns and ears... within travel distance.

I already know that he produced some nice colors with the harlequin. I'm wondering what he would do with a tri or chocolate-based doe.

Edit: I just want to clarify that what I'm most interested in producing are attractive, healthy, friendly kits.

 

[Zass]

Having paid very close attention to both other velveteen lop breeders, and astrex breeders...I believe that the genetic issues in velveteen lops come from the astrex type genes that only certain lines carry, or possibly the gene that works in combination with the curl genes to produce the temporarily hairless kits. Specifically...I think it's mostly a problem in lines that stem from certain parts of the NE US. I strongly suspect someone crossed curly canadian plush lop stock to e-lops as a genetic short cut towards rexed lops. (Astrex breeders know of at least one big herd dispersal of curly stock in OH, that occurred after a breeder's death. Apparently the curly lops they were working on are still unaccounted for.)

Astrex type coat and rex are different, with rex being the "plush" gene and astrex being a combination of genes that create curls. It's normal for curl coats to disappear as a kit ages, with curl returning after the adult molt in some, and remaining strait in others.. There is a gene related to satin that good curly lops and proper astrex carry. It gives them a sheen and helps allow the curls to show on an adult rabbit.

In most other animals, "rex" is synonymous with curl, but not in rabbits.

I do not know of any genetic issues associated with rex genes, aside from sore hocks, which seems to be line specific, with some lines with wider and better furred feet being much less prone to it.

 

[Susie570]

Having paid very close attention to both other velveteen lop breeders, and astrex breeders...I believe that the genetic issues in velveteen lops come from the astrex type genes that only certain lines carry, or possibly the gene that works in combination with the curl genes to produce the temporarily hairless kits. Specifically...I think it's mostly a problem in lines that stem from certain parts of the NE US. I strongly suspect someone crossed curly canadian plush lop stock to e-lops as a genetic short cut towards rexed lops.

Astrex type coat and rex are different, with rex being the "plush" gene and astrex being a combination of genes that create curls. It's normal for curl coats to disappear as a kit ages, with curl returning after the adult molt in some, and remaining strait in others.. There is a gene related to satin that good curly lops and proper astrex carry. it helps allow the curls to show on an adult rabbit.

In most other animals, "rex" is synonymous with curl, but not in rabbits.

I do not know of any genetic issues associated with rex genes, aside from sore hocks, which seems to be line specific, with some lines with wider and better furred feet being much less prone to it.

It's interesting because she sent me pictures of some of her kits that were very curly, but went plush later. I don't know what that means... but it sounds like a good idea to stay away from trying to raise them. I don't know if she ends up with any weird genetic issues. Her rabbits are lovely (to my untrained eye), but I don't know anything beyond that. Maybe she's very serious about culling.

 

[Dood]

A tri is just a broken harlequin

BUT it will all depend on the recessive genes your new does carry, if they don't have any then you'll just end up with chestnut (or broken chestnuts) as this is the most dominant of all colours - AA BB CC DD EE

 

[Susie570]

I know we've talked a little about this before, Dood, but I'm not sure you mentioned the thing about the doe's recessive genetics.

So, I already know that my buck can produce tri/harli kits (from the harli doe I have). What specific colors should I look for in a doe's background to produce that sort of coloring?

The brokens have mostly been snatched up pretty quickly. I've had a few inquiries on the blue harlequin kits, but haven't found them homes yet (they're lightly marked as you may remember). If I were to go in a chocolate direction, I should have a good chance of lilacs, right?

I know you also said that my buck could produce frosties with the right doe... just want to make sure I don't spend $$$ to get a nice doe and end up with all chestnuts :/

 

[Dood]

I believe your buck to be a blue sable agouti, and from the kits he has produced, genetically he is

Aa B_ cchl_ dd Ee

I believe I mentoned befor that a broken sable point or a broken tort with a sable, himilayan or REW parent would be interesting and you should get broken and solid frosties, chins, sable points, blacks, torts and fawns

The problem is finding a good quality doe in the colour you want and it is recommended to pick good conformation over colour :shrug:

 

[Susie570]

I believe your buck to be a blue sable agouti, and from the kits he has produced, genetically he is

Aa B_ cchl_ dd Ee

I believe I mentoned befor that a broken sable point or a broken tort with a sable, himilayan or REW parent would be interesting and you should get broken and solid frosties, chins, sable points, blacks, torts and fawns

The problem is finding a good quality doe in the colour you want and it is recommended to pick good conformation over colour :shrug:

I know you had said something about the sables, but I couldn't remember about the parents. I printed it out this time, so I'll know what to ask for!

Of course, I plan to try for good conformation, particularly the crown/ears since loppies go quick (and I remember, no guarantees on the lopping).

Can you think of anything, in particular that I should try to AVOID in a doe, color-wise? Thanks for all of your help, Dood

 

[alforddm]

I strongly suspect someone crossed curly canadian plush lop stock to e-lops as a genetic short cut towards rexed lops. (Astrex breeders know of at least one big herd dispersal of curly stock in OH, that occurred after a breeder's death. Apparently the curly lops they were working on are still unaccounted for.)

Ok, I googled Curly Canadian Plush Lop and now I know what they look like but what combination of genes creates that type of coat?

Why would such a cross be detrimental?

 

[Zass]

I strongly suspect someone crossed curly canadian plush lop stock to e-lops as a genetic short cut towards rexed lops. (Astrex breeders know of at least one big herd dispersal of curly stock in OH, that occurred after a breeder's death. Apparently the curly lops they were working on are still unaccounted for.)

Ok, I googled Curly Canadian Plush Lop and now I know what they look like but what combination of genes creates that type of coat?

Why would such a cross be detrimental?

Here's the thing. The geneotypes for astrex rabbits are currently only the best guesses of the breeders who have worked with them longest, especially the work of Dr. Helga Vierich , who is quite active and can be spoken to directly on the astrex facebook group.

Canadian "Curly" Plush Lop: There is also a Canadian Plush Lop. Created using Astrex as well as Holland Lop and Mini rex base stock, the Canadian Plush Lop is a curly breed. It has a more fully arched conformation than the other rex lops, is very bold and friendly, and excels at rabbit agility. The breed does not carry the dwarf gene and so tends to be four to six pounds in adult weight. Canadian Plush Lops were developed mainly in Alberta since the mid-1990s. The work was initiated by Dr. Helga Vierich and Brenda Wheeler, two Edmonton area breeders, and a Breeder's Group, formed in 2004, consisting of six rabbitries, carries on the work today. The Canadian Plush Lop (or CPLop as it is sometimes called) shares with the rare Astrex rabbit the tendency for the kits to be curly until the first juvenile moult, followed by a less curly "eclipse" coat. Then, at eight to eighteen months, the curls return with the first full adult moult. Canadian Plush Lops are the only fully arched Lop breed and are one of only two curly breeds in existence, but people who have come to know this breed tend to find their extremely people-oriented temperament their most remarkable feature.

You can see her proposed genetics here:
http://www.astrexrabbit.com/about

__________ Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:40 pm __________

The kit fading syndrome seems to be more to be connected to the gene that causes this:

http://www.petrabbitworld.com/hairless_rabbits.html

And it is obviously quite present in some velveteen lop rabbits, INCLUDING lines that do not show ANY CURL AS KITS. I've seen photo evidence of non-curly bald velveteen kits.. The balding trait is being strongly encouraged by the current breed developer...as she feels it produces better rex coats on adult animals.

Interestingly...when I spoke to Helga about the kit balding syndrome, the timing of the delayed hair regrowth after a moult that most breeders who currently have baldy kits are seeing....isn't lining up exactly with her records (and an older study) of the historic astrex pattern molt, which occurred in older kits (4-6 weeks, instead of starting at 10 days, like I was seeing in mine.)

__________ Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:49 pm __________

I might have assumed the lymphoma issue to be specific to my line....had I not recently spoken to someone who has run a rabbit shelter in the area for many years. She described to me the difficulty people were having in keeping velveteen lop kits alive, and unexplained skin lesions on an adult doe they had at the shelter. (She claimed that rabbit had run up $900 in veterinary bills, but their vet was unable to explain the sores.)

here is an interesting article...I don't have time to read it at the moment...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 1419,d.cWc

Ok I read it. It was describing cutinous as lymphoma being common in pet rabbits in Europe, but rarely diagnosed in US pet rabbits. The purpose of the study was to attempt to establish a viral link, and I believe, was unsuccessful in doing so.

In conclusion, adult European pet rabbits have an apparent
predisposition to develop nonepitheliotropic diffuse large B
cell lymphomas. This is in contrast to cutaneous lymphomas
commonly encountered in the veterinary diagnostic pathology
setting, which are most often epitheliotropic T cell lymphomas
in the skin of dogs and cats. These rabbit tumors are
highly heterogeneous, and centroblastic/centrocytic as well
as T cell–rich B cell subtypes are common.
Local spread and
involvement of distant organs are not uncommon. Neither retroviral
nor herpesviral nucleic acid was identified in these
cases, and further investigation into the factors associated
with the higher incidence of lymphoma in the European pet
rabbit population is warranted.

__________ Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:12 pm __________

Here is a bit about lymphoma that may help clear up some of the instances of fading syndrome if it could be established that some bloodlines have a genetic predisposition towards this, since it's only theory: http://www.justanswer.com/veterinary/24 ... bbits.html

As anything that can affect the stomach of a rabbit will certainly kill it quickly.

I do have photographs of the dramatically swollen lymph nodes that I experienced with multiple litters of Mucky's kits (all with different bucks) They apeared to be scattered randomly throughout their bodies.
And we do still have kit left from her final litter. He has one slightly swollen lymph node, but otherwise appears to be in good health. I'd like to note that I have never seen ANY signs of poor health in Mucky herself, and actually, she seems to have something of an iron stomach...

 

[Susie570]

Before it gets lost in the thread...

Dood - or anyone else, can you think of anything, in particular that I should try to AVOID in a doe, color-wise? Thanks for all of your help

 

[Zass]

Before it gets lost in the thread...

Dood - or anyone else, can you think of anything, in particular that I should try to AVOID in a doe, color-wise? Thanks for all of your help

Sorry. You touched on a rather complicated subject. :lol:

 

[Dood]

Dominant colours like chestnut, blacks

To get the colours you like you really need a doe with recessives on the C-locus and E-locus

Torts are very common, at least around here, and one with a chin, sable, himilayan or REW parent shouldn't be too hard to find

 

[Zass]

Dominant colours like chestnut, blacks

To get the colours you like you really need a doe with recessives on the C-locus and E-locus

Torts are very common, at least around here, and one with a chin, sable, himilayan or REW parent shouldn't be too hard to find

A tort would be a safer bet than a self, since, I've been told, many self Mini lops are steel carriers.

 

[Susie570]

Before it gets lost in the thread...

Dood - or anyone else, can you think of anything, in particular that I should try to AVOID in a doe, color-wise? Thanks for all of your help

Sorry. You touched on a rather complicated subject. :lol:

Not a problem It's fascinating stuff! Feel free to carry on.

__________ Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:57 pm __________

Dominant colours like chestnut, blacks

To get the colours you like you really need a doe with recessives on the C-locus and E-locus

Torts are very common, at least around here, and one with a chin, sable, himilayan or REW parent shouldn't be too hard to find

Excellent! Thank you! <br /><br /> __________ Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:59 pm __________ <br /><br />

Dominant colours like chestnut, blacks

To get the colours you like you really need a doe with recessives on the C-locus and E-locus

Torts are very common, at least around here, and one with a chin, sable, himilayan or REW parent shouldn't be too hard to find

A tort would be a safer bet than a self, since, I've been told, many self Mini lops are steel carriers.

Sounds like a tort is my best bet!

 

[alforddm]

That was very informative Zass. Thank you!

Sorry I hijacked your thread Syberchick.

 

[Susie570]

That was very informative Zass. Thank you!

Sorry I hijacked your thread Syberchick.

Not at all! I was reading all the stuff... I just really wanted an answer to that question

 

[Zass]

That was very informative Zass. Thank you!

Sorry I hijacked your thread Syberchick.

I was hoping you would get curious....and maybe use some of your excellent research-sorting skills to help my cause.

 

[Susie570]

I can post some of curly pictures the breeder sent me tomorrow if you want to see them. The coat changes completely from youth to adult