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- Thread starter Secuono
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Please explain why these are bad genetics. I want to learn.Amber's kits, two daddies, very obviously. Lol
The, now gone, rex/nz buck carried VM, harlequin & steel.The trifecta of crap color genetics.
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I wouldn't say they are "bad" genetics; blue-eyed whites, harlequins, and steel rabbits are all beautiful. But I'm guessing that @Secuono might be referring to the fact that these three genes can produce a lot of kits that are not "recognized" colors. More difficult yet, the latter two - harlequin and steel - can interact with other genes to make the resulting kit colors very hard to identify and/or predict.
The first, VM (which stands for Vienna Marked), means the rabbit carries the vienna gene <v> that produces blue-eyed whites (BEW, when a rabbit gets two copies of it, one from each parent). This gene is partially dominant, meaning that one copy of it can either produce bunnies with some combination of one or two blue eyes or marbled eyes, and/or white marks on their body or toes, or it can hide behind the other colors the rabbit carries (making it a VC, or Vienna Carrier, which looks like a non-vienna rabbit). The point is that it is unpredictable: if the rabbit is BEW, you can't tell what other colors it carries; if it's VM, you won't necessarily know if the white marks are from the vienna gene, the dutch gene, or the broken gene, or something else; if it is a VC, you don't even know it's a vienna carrier until it produces some surprise-marked or off-colored eyed kits.
Next, in my opinion, the two most-complicated gene series are C and E, both having at least 5 alleles (an allele is a particular form of a gene), several of which are partially dominant. Harlequin and steel are both alleles on the E-series gene, which includes, in order of dominance:
Ed = "dominant black" (which is assumed to be very rare)
Es = steel
E = normal color
ej = harlequin
e = non-extension (makes reds and torts, for example)
The harlequin allele <ej> is the second-most recessive allele on the E-series, but it is still partially dominant. In a rabbit that carries two copies of it, or one plus the lower <e>, it causes the colors that would normally be divided into bands on a single hair, to be divided onto different hairs. For instance, if the bands/rings on the hairs would be black and orange, like on a chestnut <E_>:
the harlequin <ejej> or <eje> would have black on some hairs and orange on other hairs:
The problem is that one copy of the allele combined with an allele that's higher on the dominance scale can also cause this banding to show up "through" other colors, making, for instance, a "harlequinized chestnut." @Buknee has a beauty in one of her litters - see photo #10 in:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/hersheys-2nd-litter.36078/page-2
The steel allele <Es>, at the top of the dominance hierarchy, has several tricks up its sleeve. In combination with certain other genes (notably agouti), it makes a steel colored rabbit, either gold-tipped, or silver-tipped (with the addition of another tricky allele, the one for chinchilla).
This is a broken silver-tipped steel French Lop image from Recognized Breeds
But in other combinations (in particular, combined with self), it can make a rabbit that looks black, or black with a few areas of light ticking. Further, if a rabbit gets two copies of the steel allele, it is called a "supersteel" and looks, again, like a black.
These are all fascinating if you're interested in the genetics of rabbit coat colors. We are actually trying to get the vienna genes into our Mini Rex rabbits so we can produce some BEW Mini Rex. But if you're just starting to sort through the basic genetics, or if you're trying to predict what colors your rabbits carry or will be, or if you're trying to produce show-quality purebred rabbits, these particular genes/alleles can be pretty frustrating.
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Alaska Satin explained it perfectly.
Had to get a few quick new pics of the SF.
This one has a hump of sorts, could see it in the previous pics, but i thought it was fur. See it? Idk why, but i guess I'm not keeping this one because of it.
This one has a hump of sorts, could see it in the previous pics, but i thought it was fur. See it? Idk why, but i guess I'm not keeping this one because of it.
Cosima
Well-known member
No color and doe look the best imo.
Amber's kits. Gotta choose the best, culling a bunch later this week & have to narrow it down to no more than 2.
Biggest are these two bucks, the whiter one looks to have better shape?
Then the black is the biggest doe, but blue looks to have the best shape?
Biggest are these two bucks, the whiter one looks to have better shape?
Then the black is the biggest doe, but blue looks to have the best shape?
Cosima
Well-known member
I would keep the lightly colored buck and ether the broken blue doe or the blue doe.
Here I would probably keep the blue buck and the black doe.
It's hard to say for sure from just two photos and without getting my hands on them, but having said that, I agree with your choice of the lighter marked buck. In fact I like him best of all the rabbits you've shown here. He has a very nice profile, peaks correctly, good depth, stronger shoulder, better filled in the loin, and wide down to the table in the rear view.
I actually like the broken blue best of these, at least in these photos. She peaks correctly, has a slightly better shoulder and looks like she may be a bit wider at the table than the other two. The black peaks really early and slopes off; the blue is just pretty flat, though she appears well-filled through her loin in the rear view.
Here I like the broken buck the best. He seems to peak correctly, while the blue peaks a little early and as a result is a bit flat. The broken has a slightly long shoulder, but it is well-filled, while the blue looks like he has a weak shoulder. In the hindquarter photo, even though the broken is leaning a bit, he looks like he also might be more full through the loin than the blue.
I actually think the castor might have potential. He's fighting you in the side photo but I think he probably has decent depth and a well-placed peak. To be honest, he looks to me like he's at the bottom of the heap in terms of dominance at the feeder; he's one I might hold back and see how much he improves when given his own cage and freedom to eat and drink at will. He might really fill in and put on weight quickly.
This would be a tough choice from these photos. Both of them peak early and are flat in their topline, but the black is more extreme in her early peak and really slopes off over her hindquarters. In the rear view, I like how well-filled she is through the loin, but I can't tell if she is deeper, and both views suggest that she is fairly pinched (narrower at the table than above). The broken is a little more hollow in the loin but she does fill nicely to the table - looks like she has nicely wide-spaced hind feet.
One thing that may, or may not, be important to you is color consideration. If you keep all selfs (black, blue, and broken in those colors), that's all you'll get since self is recessive. Meaning that if you want to keep producing an occasional agouti (in this case castor), you need to have a least one breeder that color. The other color consideration is the possible risk of megacolon that occurs when you produce charlies from breeding two brokens.
14 & Lynx failed to kindle. Rebred.
Grumpy has lost her bloody mind, now tearing up the urine guards and water bowl nonstop, plus never ending attacks.
Tossed her into a cull cage and put up a water bottle. Looks like I failed to write down bred date, so will add a nest later. Will throw her in the freezer after this last litter. I'm totally over her bull 
Water heater broke, so culling has been pushed to next week...
Grumpy has lost her bloody mind, now tearing up the urine guards and water bowl nonstop, plus never ending attacks.
Tossed her into a cull cage and put up a water bottle. Looks like I failed to write down bred date, so will add a nest later. Will throw her in the freezer after this last litter. I'm totally over her bull Water heater broke, so culling has been pushed to next week...
black doe is flat and peaks a bit early, the broken is a nice rabbit, but the blue...I would keep her. she's still a bit hollow about the hips.
I like the white buck.
I don't like any of the bucks.... most have this weird break in their rise. The does...the better is the darker one. The broken is quite hollow.
