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Was nice out yesterday, got new pics and weights. Keep wanting to cull most out, but spent all this time growing them up. Ugh.
Ugh, falling apart. To cull or not...I don't show or eat them as adults, so technically them falling apart once old doesn't matter. Shape at 8-12wks is most important for meat. Guess I need to remember that.
good shape, but is it enough to keep her...
bred yesterday. Very lovely, dense fur on her.
looking like the Charlie doe is best. Gotta check her growth to the previous doe's growth. Other is due a nest soon.
Fennel kits. Looking crappy. Might just cull them all out. Sister Licorice is due to kindle any day now. If her kits also suck, I'll cull them all out.
what were they, 2nd gen? So want to keep to cross to their own fur breeds for 3rd gens.
Ugh, falling apart. To cull or not...I don't show or eat them as adults, so technically them falling apart once old doesn't matter. Shape at 8-12wks is most important for meat. Guess I need to remember that.
good shape, but is it enough to keep her...
bred yesterday. Very lovely, dense fur on her.
looking like the Charlie doe is best. Gotta check her growth to the previous doe's growth. Other is due a nest soon.
Fennel kits. Looking crappy. Might just cull them all out. Sister Licorice is due to kindle any day now. If her kits also suck, I'll cull them all out.
what were they, 2nd gen? So want to keep to cross to their own fur breeds for 3rd gens.
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$182 in the red. 8 dogfood culls, 16. Finally culled Jasper. Still waiting on 14 to regrow fur before culling her out.
Currently $166 in the red.
Waiting on Licorice, Quincy & Sugar's doe to have their kits. Will cull them if they fail.
Currently $166 in the red.
Waiting on Licorice, Quincy & Sugar's doe to have their kits. Will cull them if they fail.
Licorice × Zippy. Today has been a nice, cold day.
First litter, 7 kits. Black, blue & lilac, it looks like.
Tomorrow is supposed to be another cool day. Waiting on Quincy to have her first litter. Then the Freckles' doe. Also waiting on hay to arrive.
First litter, 7 kits. Black, blue & lilac, it looks like.
Tomorrow is supposed to be another cool day. Waiting on Quincy to have her first litter. Then the Freckles' doe. Also waiting on hay to arrive.
Freckles's doe had 8 and all dead, culled her out. Tons of fur pulled, she was sitting on them. 
Licorice was also sitting on her kits today. Not well fed. If they die, she's getting culled out, too.
Moved some buns around. Goliath got Freckles' doe's cage. Lynx & kits got both of Goliath/Jasper cage, divider removed.
One huge rat found dead. But feeders still have rat poop in them. Added tops to them. They're avoiding the poison & traps. I hate rats.
Licorice was also sitting on her kits today. Not well fed. If they die, she's getting culled out, too.
Moved some buns around. Goliath got Freckles' doe's cage. Lynx & kits got both of Goliath/Jasper cage, divider removed.
One huge rat found dead. But feeders still have rat poop in them. Added tops to them. They're avoiding the poison & traps. I hate rats.
Moved 14 to cull cage. Moved around more buns, 3 stackers now empty to work on.
14's doe moved to newsf's cage. Newsf & kits moved to 14's cage.
Moved newrex to next to Licorice.
Licorice kits, maybe 2 blues instead of a lilac.
Quincy kits. Loving the booteds.
Sugar kits
Newsf & kits
Yynx & kits. Growing well. I feel like keeping her for producing good buns...
Lynx & kits. Not as fast growing, but huge ears on some of them vs how the Baymax kits had smaller ears.
14's doe moved to newsf's cage. Newsf & kits moved to 14's cage.
Moved newrex to next to Licorice.
Licorice kits, maybe 2 blues instead of a lilac.
Quincy kits. Loving the booteds.
Sugar kits
Newsf & kits
Yynx & kits. Growing well. I feel like keeping her for producing good buns...
Lynx & kits. Not as fast growing, but huge ears on some of them vs how the Baymax kits had smaller ears.
Licorice keeps peeing on them or they're peeing on each other and she's not cleaning them. So, dumped nest and rebuilt it. Washed and dried kits. Hoping things get better thinking of culling her out.
They're worse than before, one fed but dead. Skinny one moved to Quincy nest.
Washed with dawn, 2 had fur/poop caked on their feet, bottoms and mouth/nose! Even their teeth were stained.
New nest, new fur, back in nest and now it's blocked off unless I'm there to watch. She was sitting in it when I brought back the washed kits. So, that's probably how some are fed, but all are filthy. She doesn't care. Her sister did excellent, so, Licorice is getting culled out as soon as possible.
Smallest in with Quincy kits. Gave mom grass to hopefully distract her from the smell of it.
Washed with dawn, 2 had fur/poop caked on their feet, bottoms and mouth/nose! Even their teeth were stained.
New nest, new fur, back in nest and now it's blocked off unless I'm there to watch. She was sitting in it when I brought back the washed kits. So, that's probably how some are fed, but all are filthy. She doesn't care. Her sister did excellent, so, Licorice is getting culled out as soon as possible.
Smallest in with Quincy kits. Gave mom grass to hopefully distract her from the smell of it.
Got more weights, 5 moved to cull cage.
Sugar's kits, 3 solid black not pictured.
Ebony kits. 1st is heaviest, 9.5 weeks and so close to 5#! Gotta keep her, no??
Fennel kits, 8wks.
Jessi kits, 9.5wks
Lynx kits, 6.5wks
Unity kits, 11wks. Rex buck is near 5#. Reg fur doe is as well.
Widy kits, 11wks
Sugar's kits, 3 solid black not pictured.
Ebony kits. 1st is heaviest, 9.5 weeks and so close to 5#! Gotta keep her, no??
Fennel kits, 8wks.
Jessi kits, 9.5wks
Lynx kits, 6.5wks
Unity kits, 11wks. Rex buck is near 5#. Reg fur doe is as well.
Widy kits, 11wks
Moved one or two to cull cage, forgot to double check.
Licorice is refusing to feed them, 2 died. Held her to feed the rest, tossed her into a cull cage and moved her kits in with Quincy. No idea if she can feed that many, but will hold Licorice over the nest once a day and hope they recover with Quincy caring for them.
With Licorice out, removed two dividers. The older Ella sisters got her cage. Lynx's doe moved down to their old cage. Then the bottom cage, Tipsy & Vickie does moved in.
Ella's kits. The one under 2# moved to cull cage. Why are they icky looking and feeling?? Turns out it's the tile in their cage. Ugh. It looks clean, only because they lay in their urine and their fur soaks it up...It's gone now, so hopefully they can groom themselves clean, if not, they'll get a bath.
14's survivors. Doe's coat feels close to a real sf's coat. Buck's coat is long n fluffy, just like a full sf. 5wks 2days.
Ella & her 2 fosters
You know what this pic tells me? Posing is a scam.
How can the same rabbit look so vastly different? How can some breeders choose to force the pose for the better looking one and just go with it? How can they "breed" for anything when it's a lie?
Middle 2, bracing forward. Top row is more relaxed. Bottom and last in middle is fully relaxed.
The rest of the litter posed fancy, but it's not real...What am I supposed to do now? What, how do I breed for better shape when it's easy to get so many different looks from the same rabbit? Years ago, I said the spine is plyable and the shape can be created by hand. The collage proves that. People laughed and belittled me for it. But _ them, because I'm still correct.
Are we breeding for what it can be posed into?? Is that it?
The rest.
Hmm, the colors make me wonder. Black otter, blue otter, castor, lynx? and lilac otter?
Licorice is refusing to feed them, 2 died. Held her to feed the rest, tossed her into a cull cage and moved her kits in with Quincy. No idea if she can feed that many, but will hold Licorice over the nest once a day and hope they recover with Quincy caring for them.
With Licorice out, removed two dividers. The older Ella sisters got her cage. Lynx's doe moved down to their old cage. Then the bottom cage, Tipsy & Vickie does moved in.
Ella's kits. The one under 2# moved to cull cage. Why are they icky looking and feeling?? Turns out it's the tile in their cage. Ugh. It looks clean, only because they lay in their urine and their fur soaks it up...It's gone now, so hopefully they can groom themselves clean, if not, they'll get a bath.
14's survivors. Doe's coat feels close to a real sf's coat. Buck's coat is long n fluffy, just like a full sf. 5wks 2days.
Ella & her 2 fosters
You know what this pic tells me? Posing is a scam.
How can the same rabbit look so vastly different? How can some breeders choose to force the pose for the better looking one and just go with it? How can they "breed" for anything when it's a lie?
Middle 2, bracing forward. Top row is more relaxed. Bottom and last in middle is fully relaxed.
The rest of the litter posed fancy, but it's not real...What am I supposed to do now? What, how do I breed for better shape when it's easy to get so many different looks from the same rabbit? Years ago, I said the spine is plyable and the shape can be created by hand. The collage proves that. People laughed and belittled me for it. But _ them, because I'm still correct.
Are we breeding for what it can be posed into?? Is that it?
The rest.
Hmm, the colors make me wonder. Black otter, blue otter, castor, lynx? and lilac otter?
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eco2pia
Well-known member
I never got posing or showing in general once it diverges from the functional use of the animal. You are describing exactly why I gave up on showing anything. Total burnout on the subjective and irrational reasons given by judges.
I can only imagine that it is better to breed to the philosophical intent of the shape--broader well filled loins and hind legs are better for meat production, and so I would aim for that, and posing is dependant on cooperative temperament partly, and that is also something you could breed for.
Sorry, just want to express my commiseration for your frustration, I don't really have any solutions.
Thanks.
I guess I'll have to learn to do what you've done and stop obsessing over other people's ideal shape is and focus on function!
eco2pia
Well-known member
The advantage you have is that you do use your culls for meat, and you took photos before you culled, so you are getting the feedback on the actual underlying musculature of your animals that a straight pet breeder never sees. It sucks that showing is scammy, but your work is not for nothing.
So I have had different experiences with this. Posing is part art and part science, and it needs to be done in person, and needs to be done correctly. Rabbits can be trained to pose, but there should be no "forcing." The point is not to fake anyone out; the point is to put the rabbit in a position that allows assessment of quality. I know some judges that are absolutely fantastic at getting a rabbit to show itself to its best advantage, but I've found that a few judges and very many breeders do not know how to pose an animal correctly. And some people are just better at handling animals than others.
Some rabbits push against you (Rex and Mini Rex, I'm looking at you!), but with experience for the handler and training for the rabbit, that can be dealt with. Others fight being posed, but even that can be very useful in the assessment of the particular animal, and in learning how to judge rabbits, because a rabbit with structural defects is usually very uncomfortable in the pose proper to the breed, thus will fight it. Form really has to follow function, certainly in meat breeds, but it holds true even in the fancy breeds like Holland Lops or Brittannia Petites.
Posing is not simply visual assessment. It involves direct physical interaction with the rabbit, during which you get to see the rabbit move, and have the chance to feel muscle tone, thickness of shoulders and loin and hind legs, to note how far down the leg the meat goes, to tell if there's a hesitation between the base of the neck and the beginning of the back, and many other details you might not be able to judge just by looking. Assessment is not just looking at a profile of a rabbit; it necessarily involves touching the rabbit, and getting a top view, a hind view, and a view of the underside of the rabbit, which you cannot get from a photo of a rabbit placed bunched-up on a table with a human hand over its head.
Having said that, after you've handled and posed enough rabbits, you can start to develop an eye that allows you to quickly perceive that a rabbit has a hollow loin, a narrow chest, or is pinched in the hindquarters, for example, even when the rabbit is sitting in the cage (I think of this as "cage presence"). Once you know what you're looking at, you can pick out many of those details without touching the rabbit, and those features can no longer be hidden from you by improper posing. You can also pick out instances in which a breeder/handler is either inexperienced or is trying to conceal something by posing the rabbit incorrectly (often called "overposing" or "underposing").
You can tell that a rabbit has an early peak and a hollow loin whether it's bunched up or sitting "relaxed."
You can tell that a rabbit is pinched and slightly hollow whether it's overposed or underposed.
In meat rabbit breeds, a good show rabbit is a good meat rabbit. However, given that it's a human endeavor, there are great meat rabbit judges and there are those who have other priorities; there are judges that really study the standard, including the rubrics for meat classes, and those that don't; there are judges with a wealth of years of experience and those with very little (and sometimes don't seem interested in getting any more). Just like searching out an "expert" in any other field, it pays to find a really good mentor who actually knows what he or she is doing, and will give you a chance to learn, hands-on.
I agree with @eco2pia that examining your rabbits on the hoof and then parted out is a great way to refine your ability to judge quality. But I have learned so much more than I ever could have picked out by myself, by watching judges (both good and not-so-good) and from scribing at shows, especially for the meat classes. I see things now that were completely invisible to me before. Do I agree with every judge's assessments or opinions? Not by a long shot. But I listen to what the judges say, put it together with my own experiences and observations, and then make up my own mind. It's been a very successful approach for me, as evidenced both by show winnings and by incredible carcasses.
IMHO, photos of type are mostly, though not completely, useless. Putting your hands on the rabbit is key. Although they did have one ARBA Convention on Zoom (in 2020, I think), that's one of several reasons that "virtual shows" did not take off after the Covid restrictions were lifted. Many or even most breeders agree that it's nearly impossible to fully assess or compare rabbits remotely, in either photos or videos.
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