My Pedigreed SIlver Fox IS A MASKED STEEL ?????(updated)

[Zass]

OK, so I have this purebred Silver fox buck. He's fully pedigreed and both of his parents are from very expensive AG Fox lines.
I'm mentioning them because I see them as a respected breeder, and I've been really impressed with my rabbits so far.
He's been looked over by 2 different show judges and no one has noticed anything odd about his coat. http://bunnyshriss.tumblr.com/image/48257941822
http://bunnyshriss.tumblr.com/image/47421327641 His only issue being that little clump of white hairs on his cheek there. HIs kits to my unrelated pedigreed doe are looking like nice show prospects.


Here's my problem. I bred him to my opal colored mix breed doe. She's a nice clean opal.
http://bunnyshriss.tumblr.com/image/63342182401
A visual agouti cannot carry steel. If it was present she would look like a blue steel instead of an opal.

I got steel kits from this cross.
There were no other bucks who could have done the job. I don't own any steel rabbits or carriers (or so I thought)

I know si silvering can show up on a steel rabbit, the steel gene doesn't hide SI silvering


So, logic is telling me that my black purebred, expensive, silver fox rabbit here is a masked steel. Of course, when you breed steel to self and then always breed to self, the steel will never show up. And since there are no agouti foxes...most breeders would never know that their black rabbits were actually steels...right?

Is this correct? and if it's the case, how many silver fox might be carrying this? Is there a good way to eliminate this from the bloodlines without outcrossing?

 

[skysthelimit]

Are you a member of the SF page on FB?

We are having quite the discussion about the strange things popping up in SF recently.

Quite a few members have had steels, REW of course, Torts, Reds, and I have two blue eye SF, and their breeder has one with a totally white leg, from toe to elbow.

There was time when the numbers were way down, they were mixed with who knows to preserve the breed, and now things are popping up, as lines are joined together and linebred. Not to mention, in order to create/recreate chocolates and blues, Satins were used, so colors are introduced that way as well.

You can do what you are doing know, testing each one and disposing of the mismarked offspring and their parents. I am trying to flush out the blue eyes and whatever is causing white nose/leg marked kits in my herd. I would just cull them all and start again, but after reading what everyone else is experiencing, I don't trust their stock anymore than mind, I'd rather flush it out and make nice meat and pelts in the process.

 

[Dood]

You are correct.

A self rabbit can hide steel for many generations. Steel is quite common in REW New Zealand's and I, and several others, believe it is associated with size and/or growth rate as my steel kits tend to mature better than those who don't carry the gene.

You can only know if they are carriers if you test breed but in your cases I don't believe it would be a big issue since as you stated, Silver Fox only come in self colours. The reason it may be prevalent is because the gene may indeed improve the rabbits size.

Your not the only one getting surprises in your rare breed. I have an expensive show stock American Chinchilla who carries self, REW, dilute, AND non-extension and I likely would have never known if I hadn't bred her to a meat mutt buck who also has these recessives and if she hadn't had an 'oops' litter by my sisters magpie mini lop and giving me magpies in the nest box :shock:

 

[Zass]

Related to growth rates huh? I have a dandy little buck from my last litter who is 8 lbs, and just reach 18 weeks old.

The buck does carry REW as well, so I think it's safe to assume someone outcrossed to new Zealand(notorious steel carriers) at some point and that's where my rabbits are getting that fabulous growth. They do well enough on the show table, but I can't say I'm not disappointed.
I think the outcross is pretty far back.

A tort would at least mean I have a black rabbit, and they are easy to eliminate, but
I was going to try and get some lynx and opal colored rabbits with silver fox coats. Steel is a PAIN to get rid of.

 

[dangerbunny]

I understand those things can hide for a longtime, good chance the person you got your rabbits from didn't do the outcross

 

[Dood]

Actuall steel is very easy to get rid of in agouti rabbits (lynx and opal) since it always shows up and cannot hide, so you don't need to worry about secret carriers.

 

[Frecs]

I thought I had posted this...but I'm not seeing it...so...

Since Silver Foxes are selfs and steel will not affect color nor affect it's silvering...
Since the steel gene seems to be connected, in a positive way, to size of rabbit...

Is there a negative I'm missing in terms of a SF having a steel gene in recessive???

 

[skysthelimit]

Other than the fact that it's not supposed to be there?

 

[phillinley]

I would just cull them all and start again, but after reading what everyone else is experiencing, I don't trust their stock anymore than mind, I'd rather flush it out and make nice meat and pelts in the process.

There are plenty of herds out there that have test bred their rabbits for years now. You would not have many surprises if at all if you bought something as black/blue heritage from the Tudors or the Greens just to name a couple.

 

[Frecs]

Other than the fact that it's not supposed to be there?

I'm sure there are a lot of genes hanging out that we don't know about because they are recessive that "aren't suppose to be there"...but they are...but they do no harm...

What HARM does the steel gene do to a Silver Fox rabbit? does it affect it meeting the SOP and ANY way?

 

[Zass]

Haha, the HARM is that it sets back my plans of making opal and lynx colored rabbits with silver fox coats.

 

[Frecs]

Haha, the HARM is that it sets back my plans of making opal and lynx colored rabbits with silver fox coats.

Well, there you go... :lol:

 

[skysthelimit]

I would just cull them all and start again, but after reading what everyone else is experiencing, I don't trust their stock anymore than mind, I'd rather flush it out and make nice meat and pelts in the process.

There are plenty of herds out there that have test bred their rabbits for years now. You would not have many surprises if at all if you bought something as black/blue heritage from the Tudors or the Greens just to name a couple.

You'd be surprised at the names on my peds...

And the breedings went 4+ gens deep before something popped out. Even the Tudors have been known to have an occasional REW.<br /><br />__________ Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:14 pm __________<br /><br />

Other than the fact that it's not supposed to be there?

I'm sure there are a lot of genes hanging out that we don't know about because they are recessive that "aren't suppose to be there"...but they are...but they do no harm...

What HARM does the steel gene do to a Silver Fox rabbit? does it affect it meeting the SOP and ANY way?

I just don't like sneaky genes. And it throws a wrench in things if I decide to go something creative.

 

[phillinley]

You'd be surprised at the names on my peds...

Names on the peds aren't what I mean. I mean if you go straight to the Tudors or straight to the Greens and ask for an unrelated pair that have been test bred to not carry XYZ those are the rabbits you can raise with best certainty that you won't have surprises.

 

[Frecs]

I just don't like sneaky genes. And it throws a wrench in things if I decide to go something creative.

So, someone else's creativity is throwing a wrench in your creativity...well, how dare they <br /><br />__________ Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:10 am __________<br /><br />BTW, if you need to remove those horrid steel genes from your rabbitry...I could use it to boost the size of my SFs...I'll be happy to accept those horrid pesky genes. :-D

 

[skysthelimit]

You'd be surprised at the names on my peds...

Names on the peds aren't what I mean. I mean if you go straight to the Tudors or straight to the Greens and ask for an unrelated pair that have been test bred to not carry XYZ those are the rabbits you can raise with best certainty that you won't have surprises.

What I'm saying is how do you know I don't have something from them, and that I'm not using it to test breed what I have? I try never to name where my stock comes from unless absolutely necessary, just in case something happens and I want to talk about it here, so it doesn't reach the breeder before I have chance to talk to them. I don't have any scrap yard rabbits, I belong to the breed clubs and buy the best stock possible all of the time (as a dog breeder you can imagine peds and lines are very important to me).<br /><br />__________ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:07 am __________<br /><br />

I just don't like sneaky genes. And it throws a wrench in things if I decide to go something creative.

So, someone else's creativity is throwing a wrench in your creativity...well, how dare they

Well, if I'm paying for it, I wanna get it my way, Lol

 

[Zass]

I will be selling them off at some point. I have no intention of killing good meat/show rabbits, especially when I'll have to raise them to brood stock age just to check for it!

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

The definition of purebred is that two rabbits will reproduce themselves.. exactly. It doesn't really matter what recessive genes are there they are usually present in any genetic base. This is not new. As the sop doesn't recognize agouti silver fox and steel doesn't mess with the coat or colour, I don't understand the fuss.Making an SF colour that is not on the sop would be a take your chances kind of thing anyways, also, it is messing with the SF genetic base in exactly the same way that the OP has accused other breeders of SF that went before him! Of course if these just never leave the farm then all is well no matter, but obviously things can happen we don't plan for! Just saying! It just goes to show there are lots of "creative" breeders out there and that also went before us. We are actually not doing anything new or different than before...

 

[phillinley]

What I'm saying is how do you know I don't have something from them, and that I'm not using it to test breed what I have?

I was going off of "I don't trust their stock anymore than mine" if you were going to start over. If you went to them specifically and say "I need two unrelated pairs that have no 'new era' chocolate on the peds and the least possibility of carrying surprises like whites, funky white legs, etc", you'd probably never have a problem. Their herds are so well developed they've got it figured out with most of their stuff what they have and the stuff they don't have figured out they usually don't sell.

 

[Dood]

It doesn't really matter what recessive genes are there they are usually present in any genetic base

this is not true as the recessives will eventually show themselves in a litter and sooner in a closed herd and with linebreeding.

And MANY purebred rabbits, even rare ones, DO NOT have secret recessives. My horse faced, long eared and ugly as sin meat line of American Chinchillas ONLY produce chinchilla coloured AmChins - genetically they are AA BB cchd chd DD EE but unfortunately I added in some beautyful show stock from a long line of champions who are recessive for self, REW, dilute, and non extension and i now get all sorts of weird and sometimes wonderful colours but I don't sell kits from this bloodline with papers, I advertise them as mutts and warn buyers of the possible recessives they carry.

It is just blind luck that in this particular case it is not a problem because according to the Silver Fox SOP they only come in self which just happens to hide the steel gene.

But I do agree that the original posters desire for opal and lynx Silver Fox is messing up the genotype just as much as the person who added the steel gene.