My Pedigreed SIlver Fox IS A MASKED STEEL ?????(updated)

[Zass]

those mixes will never be pedigreed or bred into my fox lines! definitely never. I won't ever sell them as "opal foxes" or to breeders.
it's just my own side project because I tan pelts and have a desire to see that lovely fur type in more colors. Lots of people produce crossbreed meat mutts.

__________ Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:41 pm __________

I have separate pedigreed lines that I have every intention to keep squeaky clean, and clean out that steel and REW too, if I can do it without harming the growth.<br /><br />__________ Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:46 pm __________<br /><br />Oh, and I wasn't blaming the breeder for the outcross. I'm sure it had to happen at some point, foxes were rare and fresh genetics can go a long way.

 

[skysthelimit]

What I'm saying is how do you know I don't have something from them, and that I'm not using it to test breed what I have?

I was going off of "I don't trust their stock anymore than mine" if you were going to start over. If you went to them specifically and say "I need two unrelated pairs that have no 'new era' chocolate on the peds and the least possibility of carrying surprises like whites, funky white legs, etc", you'd probably never have a problem. Their herds are so well developed they've got it figured out with most of their stuff what they have and the stuff they don't have figured out they usually don't sell.

I don't plan to start over, someone (who doesn't test anything) suggested culling the ones with issues. Nor do I think the OP should start over.
And there are possibilities still. So one is still left to test breed anything they buy, and any responsible breeder should, and not just expect it not to be there because the previous person did their homework. I don't trust that any person stock is completely free of everything, I'm not even sure that's genetically possible. Everyone has junk in their trunk.

 

[Zass]

Test breeding fox for steel requires outcrossing. It would be silly to imagine breeders test breeding for every little thing an animal isn't supposed to have. Like steel an a fox, because they don't come in any agouti shades, it just wouldn't have ever cropped up if I hadn't decided to play with the colors some. Steel is kind of a special case though, because back crossing won't show it like it would most things, like rew and non-extension.

That's a good point someone brought up about tainting fox lines with this project, because I'm working with visual agouti colors, I wouldn't think to worry someone mistaking them for actual silverfox and breed them in. They will be quite obviously mutts the first generation, but two or three down the line, the self color will re-connect and make rabbits that look a lot like silverfox.
Maybe I'll find something else to call em...just to make sure anyone wanting one for a pet doesn't decide to breed it with a fox later. Once I get my type and coat right I'll go ahead and work the self out of the lines, that might take me a LONG time. I'm gonna have to bite the bullet on this one, take responsibility and not sell the crosses.

 

[skysthelimit]

. It would be silly to imagine breeders test breeding for every little thing an animal isn't supposed to have.

I don't think so. That's what raises simple breeding into an art form, creating new breeds and refining old ones.

 

[Dood]

I'll go ahead and work the self out of the lines, that might take me a LONG time

Test breeding to any self will produce 50% self rabbits if the agouti is a carrier so it shouldn't take more than 6 months

 

[Zass]

*blinks* your right. That's a one generation fix. so long as I'm careful not to sell any while they are "in development" no one has to worry about my side project mucking up their foxes.<br /><br />__________ Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:52 pm __________<br /><br />

. It would be silly to imagine breeders test breeding for every little thing an animal isn't supposed to have.

I don't think so. That's what raises simple breeding into an art form, creating new breeds and refining old ones.

I agree with you that it would indeed raise breeding to that level. If only every small time breeder had enough cages or hutches to be such an artist!

It's a good thing most genes are different then steel and can be turned up by back crossing or line breeding, instead of having to source outside rabbits.

 

[skysthelimit]

It's a good thing most genes are different then steel and can be turned up by back crossing or line breeding, instead of having to source outside rabbits.

This is the only reason I don't like steel or non extension in my herd.

 

[Zass]

I got a litter of 10 out of an unrelated(to any of mine, far as I know) SF buck to another visual opal doe.

I'm pretty sure every single kit is a steel. All 10 of em. That means both silver fox bucks I was able to get my hands on, from different states, are carrying 2 copies of the steel gene. Not just steels then, super steels. Both of them.

If they only had one copy, it would have only been 1/2 the litter.

Last summer, I bred my black silverfox buck to a black mutt doe. I had visual steel kits.
That's means one of those black rabbits was an agouti!!!!!

Here is the question, was it the fox, or the mutt?

At the time I assumed it was the mutt, because...there was no way my expensive pedigreed silver fox buck was a masked agouti.

Now I'm not so sure.
For those of you getting tort in your lines, at least you know it isn't an AGOUTI RABBIT!!!!!

I'm getting ready to cull all of these rabbits and raise something else.
I can't in good conscience ever sell an agouti rabbit posing as a black one.

Someone sell me some fox tested and proven steel-free. I don't even care if they have wool, tort, rew, ANYTHING is fine as long as they are free of steel, fluffy, and are sweet to handle.

For anyone who wants to know a bit more about this problem with steel:
http://mimisrabbits.webs.com/mysteelfreeproject.htm

Ok so they clearly have a plan to get rid of the steels, but what of...a rabbit that ONLY comes in self color?

 

[Bad Habit]

Your buck might only be Es_ rather than EsEs. Genetics is a game of chance. I had a lionhead litter where both parents were dwarfs, which meant that each kit had a 25% chance of being a peanut... I got 4 peanuts, 1 viable kit.

 

[Zass]

Your buck might only be Es_ rather than EsEs. Genetics is a game of chance. I had a lionhead litter where both parents were dwarfs, which meant that each kit had a 25% chance of being a peanut... I got 4 peanuts, 1 viable kit.

10 out of ten is heavy odds though, especially with the unrelated buck producing 9 out of 9 visual selfs or steels. NOT ONE AGOUTI OR OPAL.

The opal mutt does I'm using to test breed look like this, her belly is white trimmed with tan. Very lovely, and totally steel-free.
from an opal FG/NZW buck and a Lilac doe

It doesn't matter he's got one copy or two. I don't want them. I want SELF SF rabbits, not genetically agouti rabbits pretending to be self..

 

[Dood]

They can be self and super steel at the same time. The chances that they are agouti based super steels is slim or there would be quite a few chestnuts and gold tipped steels popping up when bred to true black SF

This shouldn't be a problem for the breed in general.

I actually love the steel gene and if you have pictures I'd love to see a steel opal or lynx

 

[Zass]

They can be self and super steel at the same time. The chances that they are agouti based super steels is slim or there would be quite a few chestnuts and gold tipped steels popping up when bred to true black SF

This shouldn't be a problem for the breed in general.

I actually love the steel gene and if you have pictures I'd love to see a steel opal or lynx

Yeah they could...hmm... but don't tell me you wouldn't get a bit jumpy at the thought that your rabbits might not actually be black. I mean, ONE of the two blacks(one SF one a mutt) I bred together this summer wasn't black. They both were likely super steels. (The black (NZW/NZB)mutt produced all steels when bred to an opal buck as well)

My first rabbits ever were steel, so I've put some time and research into em.
This is a gold tipped blue steel. Haven't yet lined up the genetics to produce a gold tipped lilac steel.

 

[Dood]

Yeah they could...hmm... but don't tell you wouldn't get a bit jumpy at the thought that your rabbits might not actually be black

I went through that as a kid.

I bred seal, siamese sable and sable point ND and bought a well bred black buck to diversify my bloodline and reduce size. It turned out he was an agouti super steel and only gave me steel kits :shock: as he didn't carry self either