Moral Dilemma

[Susie570]

So it's been decided that any litters I raise, unless the bunny is very promising, will be sent to freezer camp when they reach about processing age (I have some flexibility, we would rather sell them than eat them if I can get at least $20/rabbit). Thing is... my son will FREAK out if he discovers we end up putting bunnies in the freezer. He's 8 and the rabbits are the first thing he has really connected to. On the other hand, I have strict policy of not lying to him.

So, I could lie to him and say it's chicken (which he won't want to eat anyway), or I could give him a veiled truth and tell him it's 'meat' (I doubt he will let that go though), or I could just tell him what we're doing and deal with him being traumatised and hating us for it.

We've been trying to desensitize him to the idea, by talking about rabbits for meat and joking about eating the rabbits and such, but every time he takes it very seriously and kind of freaks out.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[MaggieJ]

I don't think joking about it will help desensitize him. Discussing the ethics of eating meat in general terms may pave the way to talking rationally about eating rabbit meat as well.

Have you talked to him about this to find out why he reacts so strongly to the idea of eating rabbits? You say he won't eat chicken . . . Does he eat other meats such as beef and pork?

If the issue is that rabbits are cute and cuddly, getting him to think about why the life of a cute animal should be considered more important than the life of one not so cute may help. Of course, there is always the chance that getting him thinking will turn him against eating any kind of meat.

A clear line needs to be drawn between animals as pets and animals as food. Pets versus livestock.

This is a tough situation and I hope some of the other members will have more useful ideas than I do.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I would be honest with him- but take a kind of roundabout and gradual approach to it.

First off, I would talk to him about rabbits and their role in the wild. They are a very important part of the food chain, which is why they have large litters. Only a couple of wild rabbit babies will live to be old enough to have kits of their own because everything eats them. Hawks, owls, snakes, bobcats, coyotes, wolves, mountain lions, and even people.

Ask him if he has enjoyed raising the litter of rabbits you have now- does he like playing with the baby rabbits and helping you take care of them? Would he like to have baby rabbits around to play with all of the time?

Tell him you are thinking of raising rabbits to sell to people as pets and maybe even showing them so you can make friends with other rabbit people. But the problem is that you have to make sure to find good homes for the babies- and not just ANY home, because some people don't take very good care of their pets, or they get bored with them, and then the animal suffers.

Explain that you can't keep all of the rabbits that don't sell for two reasons- space and the expense of feeding them- so you need to have a plan for the ones that don't find good homes... which is to end their lives quickly and humanely and then eat them.

If (when?) he reacts negatively to that, ask him about eating meat in general- "You love hamburgers, right? Well, hamburger comes from cows, and was once an adorable little baby calf." Explain that eating meat is very important to be healthy. Yes, some people are vegetarian, but it can be very complicated to make sure they are getting enough protein and it is especially difficult to make sure growing children get what they need to grow up strong and healthy.

Explain that when you buy meat in a grocery store you have no way of knowing how the animal was raised or what it was fed. Tell him that there are very few small time farmers that raise their animals the way he has seen in story books, with chickens roaming around eating bugs and pigs being able to play in mud puddles. Many of the animals raised today are raised indoors and have never even seen the sun.

Tell him that you want to make sure that at least some of the meat that you eat has had a good and happy life and been loved while it was growing up. You want to do this because you love all animals and by eating rabbits it means that you wont have to buy as much meat from the big farms that don't necessarily care if their animals have been happy.

But most important of all, you want to make sure that your son eats the healthiest food possible, and the best way to ensure that is to raise it yourself.

 

[Susie570]

I would be honest with him- but take a kind of roundabout and gradual approach to it.

First off, I would talk to him about rabbits and their role in the wild. They are a very important part of the food chain, which is why they have large litters. Only a couple of wild rabbit babies will live to be old enough to have kits of their own because everything eats them. Hawks, owls, snakes, bobcats, coyotes, wolves, mountain lions, and even people.

Ask him if he has enjoyed raising the litter of rabbits you have now- does he like playing with the baby rabbits and helping you take care of them? Would he like to have baby rabbits around to play with all of the time?

Tell him you are thinking of raising rabbits to sell to people as pets and maybe even showing them so you can make friends with other rabbit people. But the problem is that you have to make sure to find good homes for the babies- and not just ANY home, because some people don't take very good care of their pets, or they get bored with them, and then the animal suffers.

Explain that you can't keep all of the rabbits that don't sell for two reasons- space and the expense of feeding them- so you need to have a plan for the ones that don't find good homes... which is to end their lives quickly and humanely and then eat them.

If (when?) he reacts negatively to that, ask him about eating meat in general- "You love hamburgers, right? Well, hamburger comes from cows, and was once an adorable little baby calf." Explain that eating meat is very important to be healthy. Yes, some people are vegetarian, but it can be very complicated to make sure they are getting enough protein and it is especially difficult to make sure growing children get what they need to grow up strong and healthy.

Explain that when you buy meat in a grocery store you have no way of knowing how the animal was raised or what it was fed. Tell him that there are very few small time farmers that raise their animals the way he has seen in story books, with chickens roaming around eating bugs and pigs being able to play in mud puddles. Many of the animals raised today are raised indoors and have never even seen the sun.

Tell him that you want to make sure that at least some of the meat that you eat has had a good and happy life and been loved while it was growing up. You want to do this because you love all animals and by eating rabbits it means that you wont have to buy as much meat from the big farms that don't necessarily care if their animals have been happy.

But most important of all, you want to make sure that your son eats the healthiest food possible, and the best way to ensure that is to raise it yourself.

Brilliant... I love every bit of that post.

I have no desire to be dishonest with him. We've had quite a few conversations about the various types of animals raised for meat and the fact that he does eat meat and where it comes from and the lives of those animals and such. Maybe we just haven't really talked about it ENOUGH. I don't know. He eats some meat, he's just really picky about it. He will eat hamburger (this is a fairly recent thing, he wouldn't eat it when he was younger). He LIKES VENISON, which kind of surprises me. We had a big incident one time when we were driving on a long trip and he saw some wild deer and we started talking about how tasty they were and he got all upset about it, but I guess he got over it because he has never refused to eat venison, even though we always tell him it's deer meat. He will eat chicken if it's prepared certain ways... he has some kind of issue with what he calls 'slimy chicken', I don't get it. Some kind of texture thing. We haven't quite figured out what the secret is... but he seems to prefer 'dry' chicken meat to other types, although he will, sometimes eat a chicken leg. He prefers breaded (who doesn't) but we rarely make it that way to save on calories. He likes fish.

I like the approach of telling him about the responsibility of raising animals, particularly meat animals and the difference between 'pets' and 'livestock'. I'm planning to have an outdoor rabbit shed and it MAY help, I'm thinking, if any rabbits that are particularly destined for meat rabbits are kept in the outdoor hutches instead of inside when possible. I believe having the rabbits indoors give him a stronger emotional bond with them. That may help, I don't know.

I feel it's important for him to understand the relationship we have with the animals we choose to eat, without losing his blossoming capacity for empathy with other creatures. It's delicate and I appreciate the ideas.

 

[cmfarm]

When explaining about meat rabbits I have tried to be very matter of fact about it. With ours it is a little easier because we raise breeds that are more typical meat breeds rather than ones geared more toward pets. I told them when we got them that they were for raising meat. I showed them what types of things to look for on a good meat rabbit. They even watched me butcher some. My oldest son seemed the most saddened by it, but he likes to eat and thought it tasted good and we haven't really had too much trouble about it.

 

[Susie570]

When explaining about meat rabbits I have tried to be very matter of fact about it. With ours it is a little easier because we raise breeds that are more typical meat breeds rather than ones geared more toward pets. I told them when we got them that they were for raising meat. I showed them what types of things to look for on a good meat rabbit. They even watched me butcher some. My oldest son seemed the most saddened by it, but he likes to eat and thought it tasted good and we haven't really had too much trouble about it.

I thought about showing Skye a few videos of how quickly the rabbits are dispatched, but at this point I didn't think that would be a good idea. Maybe later. :/

 

[Prisma]

I don't know if it will work with him, but with my cousins they were rather upset to learn I ate the ones that didn't sell or I didn't keep now. They were afraid I was going to eat their pets that stay with me, which of course I never would. I had to explain to them that some times being kept and living happily then being put down quickly for food for me was much better than some of the places they could end up and tell them about the ones that made me change my mind on not eating my own. Plus that the meat from the rabbits was much healthier and tastes better than what the meat from a store does that was another slam into getting more rabbit meat into my diet, even hamburger they loved wasn't as good. They asked about where and how their hamburger/chicken gets to them, course they were told. They already knew that for some thing to eat, some thing must die from watching their out side cats and because the family is hunter/fishing oriented any way and they love deer/squirrel/catfish/carp/etc.They aren't as upset over it now, but still don't like the idea I'm eating cute fluffy rabbits in the end. Which is OK, I also explained to them that they don't have to try or want to hear about it if they don't want to but every one has the right to choose being able to do that sort of thing and there's nothing wrong with it. They are curious, they ask questions from time to time about how its done and how cooked. They also ask questions about why their peers react the way they do when they talk about the deer or what they've learned about the food they get from the store really is, simple have to explain that not every body knows or wants to know where their food comes from or how its made which is why we have so many problems. There was never any joking, death is a serious thing and their parents as well as others around them made sure early on they knew about it. Part of their friends still think that things don't die, they just nap or run away and their food isn't an animal its hamburger and every once in a while we have to all remind them that they have to respect their friends parents choices not to explain things or show them things that they've seen and not to do that as people have different moral and ethical codes. Its took months to get the basics across, they just recently started really understanding its not so bad if they are treated well and are put down quickly for food versus possibility of what I've had come back or what they've seen on shows or been told by others. Small bits and small steps...my cousins are 8 and 9 by the way, both girls.

 

[owlsfriend]

Does your son have a pet rabbit, one that follows him around? Separate that from the "who gets eaten" discussions right away. "We would NEVER eat Spagetteos! He's your favorite pet." Then go into the discussion of cute baby bunnies.....etc.

 

[Susie570]

I don't know if it will work with him, but with my cousins they were rather upset to learn I ate the ones that didn't sell or I didn't keep now. They were afraid I was going to eat their pets that stay with me, which of course I never would. I had to explain to them that some times being kept and living happily then being put down quickly for food for me was much better than some of the places they could end up and tell them about the ones that made me change my mind on not eating my own. Plus that the meat from the rabbits was much healthier and tastes better than what the meat from a store does that was another slam into getting more rabbit meat into my diet, even hamburger they loved wasn't as good. They asked about where and how their hamburger/chicken gets to them, course they were told. They already knew that for some thing to eat, some thing must die from watching their out side cats and because the family is hunter/fishing oriented any way and they love deer/squirrel/catfish/carp/etc.They aren't as upset over it now, but still don't like the idea I'm eating cute fluffy rabbits in the end. Which is OK, I also explained to them that they don't have to try or want to hear about it if they don't want to but every one has the right to choose being able to do that sort of thing and there's nothing wrong with it. They are curious, they ask questions from time to time about how its done and how cooked. They also ask questions about why their peers react the way they do when they talk about the deer or what they've learned about the food they get from the store really is, simple have to explain that not every body knows or wants to know where their food comes from or how its made which is why we have so many problems. There was never any joking, death is a serious thing and their parents as well as others around them made sure early on they knew about it. Part of their friends still think that things don't die, they just nap or run away and their food isn't an animal its hamburger and every once in a while we have to all remind them that they have to respect their friends parents choices not to explain things or show them things that they've seen and not to do that as people have different moral and ethical codes. Its took months to get the basics across, they just recently started really understanding its not so bad if they are treated well and are put down quickly for food versus possibility of what I've had come back or what they've seen on shows or been told by others. Small bits and small steps...my cousins are 8 and 9 by the way, both girls.

That's all very helpful. Thank you <br /><br /> __________ Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:08 am __________ <br /><br />

Does your son have a pet rabbit, one that follows him around? Separate that from the "who gets eaten" discussions right away. "We would NEVER eat Spagetteos! He's your favorite pet." Then go into the discussion of cute baby bunnies.....etc.

He does have a 'favorite', and a few others he loves as pets. I guess I should clarify what I meant about 'joking' about it, we have said stuff like "Wow, this rabbit tastes great!" when eating chicken, and then wink at him and such. He doesn't think it's funny though. We have told him that we would NEVER eat one of the PET rabbits.

I think he's insecure about it though. He tends to be very dramatic and makes things into 'black and white' issues. We're working on that though. I don't know if it's just his age, or something odd about the way his brain works. :shrug:

 

[Rainey]

He does have a 'favorite', and a few others he loves as pets. I guess I should clarify what I meant about 'joking' about it, we have said stuff like "Wow, this rabbit tastes great!" when eating chicken, and then wink at him and such. He doesn't think it's funny though. We have told him that we would NEVER eat one of the PET rabbits.

I think he's insecure about it though. He tends to be very dramatic and makes things into 'black and white' issues. We're working on that though. I don't know if it's just his age, or something odd about the way his brain works. :shrug:

I had a very dramatic daughter but she tended to focus on plants. She was two when our house was built and we moved into it from an apartment. One of my first things was to plant a garden and that summer as I weeded it she'd follow behind me with her little trowel replanting the weeds because as she told me, "everything should have a chance, mama" When she was 3 or 4, we were cutting back some trees to give the highbush blueberries light and she put up signs on them saying things like THIS IS A LIVING TREE--DO NOT KILL.
I think the advice not to lie to your child is right on target. And the other part is to keep your balance--to acknowledge the strong feelings the child has and not to overreact to them. I let her replant the weeds--by the time she got to them their roots had been exposed and they died anyway. We cut what we needed to cut in order to let in enough sunlight to grow food. We didn't cut down her "grandmother pine" even though it was near the blueberries. That was the tree she sang and told stories to and the one where she could be found when she was seeking comfort. It's easy to fall into dismissing the concerns or into enabling the child to become a tyrant to whom all else must give way, but somewhere between there is a working balance. And she did outgrow those behaviors and become an avid gardener without losing her passion about the natural world.

 

[Susie570]

Thanks, Rainey

 

[Miss M]

Everybody has given you awesome answers, Susie!

About the "slimy chicken"... didn't you recently mention that you suspected he might be on the autism spectrum somewhere (or was that somebody else? :hmm: )? Food texture and other tactile issues are very common among those on the spectrum.

If that was you talking about your son, it may be something he can grow past eventually with your help. With both of ours, we didn't push the food issues much when they were younger, but the older they got (and the more capable of forcing themselves to do things they did not want to), the more we insisted they eat -- for example -- gravy on their rice. Or mashed potatoes. It has worked well.

 

[II Arrows]

There is no easy way to tell your children that they are eating those once cute little fur balls that were hopping around the cage a few weeks ago. I tried talking to my kids about eating the bunnies we raise and they look at me like I have horns coming out of my head. I raise both new zealands and Californian rabbits for meat and rex mix(s) for pets. My wife is not 100 percent on board either but she's coming around. I remember cleaning a deer I got this year and my 6 year old son watching me, every step of the way. He was even running around in the back yard with the 2 front legs. I believe the earlier you show your children the processing stages of cleaning or dressing any animal the easier it will be for them to understand the fact that animals don't grown on Wal-Mart shelves. eventually it will all work out For you and your son, patience is the key.

 

[alforddm]

Food texture and other tactile issues are very common among those on the spectrum.

That is very interesting. I went through a period when I was growing up when I could not abide bananas and mashed potatoes. The texture made me nauseated.

 

[EnglishSpot]

:hijacked:

I hate the feel of rotini noodles, although I know it's pasta like angel hair. ??? The texture of avocados is a complete turn off too.

 

[LopLover]

Coming from someone who has some slight autism, I can understand the texture thing, especially with food. If a texture feels off, it is highly repulsive , at least to me. The "bad" feeling seems to amplified ten fold with it. It's one of the reasons I can't eat jello. The flavor may be fine but the texture of it makes me gag if I put it in my mouth. Barbecued water chestnuts do the same thing. I don't know. Maybe it is because my brain is hard wired that crunchy doesn't go with barbecue. If it is an autism thing, I'm putting in my own experiences. I can relate to him on these things.

 

[Susie570]

Everybody has given you awesome answers, Susie!

About the "slimy chicken"... didn't you recently mention that you suspected he might be on the autism spectrum somewhere (or was that somebody else? :hmm: )? Food texture and other tactile issues are very common among those on the spectrum.

If that was you talking about your son, it may be something he can grow past eventually with your help. With both of ours, we didn't push the food issues much when they were younger, but the older they got (and the more capable of forcing themselves to do things they did not want to), the more we insisted they eat -- for example -- gravy on their rice. Or mashed potatoes. It has worked well.

Yeah, that was me. I plan to get him tested for some stuff, just so I know what I might be dealing with, or if this is normal kid stuff. I'm not around a lot of kids and honestly, I have a hard time figuring out what is 'normal' and what isn't. The food texture issue is one of my concerns. We try to keep encouraging him to try food that we know he SHOULD like. More often, he's losing interest in food that he has eaten before, but sometimes he's picking up new foods that he thought he didn't like. It's mostly a challenge to just get him to TRY it. :roll:

__________ Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:11 pm __________

Coming from someone who has some slight autism, I can understand the texture thing, especially with food. If a texture feels off, it is highly repulsive , at least to me. The "bad" feeling seems to amplified ten fold with it. It's one of the reasons I can't eat jello. The flavor may be fine but the texture of it makes me gag if I put it in my mouth. Barbecued water chestnuts do the same thing. I don't know. Maybe it is because my brain is hard wired that crunchy doesn't go with barbecue. If it is an autism thing, I'm putting in my own experiences. I can relate to him on these things.

Thanks, LL.
I'm trying to be patient with it, but it's really frustrating when you spend time cooking a healthy meal and your kid starts gagging when he takes a bite of chicken, because it's 'slimy'.... I'm trying to figure it out.

__________ Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:13 pm __________

Food texture and other tactile issues are very common among those on the spectrum.

That is very interesting. I went through a period when I was growing up when I could not abide bananas and mashed potatoes. The texture made me nauseated.

I STILL have a 'thing' about bananas... they are pretty gross to me unless they are on the green side, then I can eat them. Mashed potatoes though?? I could eat those all day. Fortunately, he seems to like any kind of potatoes (well, except sweet potatoes) and he also likes avocado :shrug:

 

[katiebear]

Not to pry, but you have mentioned your son before..how old is he? I ask this because you mentioned processing videos...Also is he average or special needs? I am currently raising my two grandsons as most of you know, the older one is almost 10 and is moderately functional autistic, He lives in a different world from the rest of us...He would not understand and would most likely be temporarily traumatized by seeing it in person., but to him video, computer or tv, is more real than life..And food is a major issue..He will force himself to throw up if he doesn't like something..that can be traumatic for the whole family.
Now my almost seven year old is highly intelligent probably, even gifted... He understands the whole process but has not witnessed the processing .He has ask to be with me when I process but I don't think he needs to see that quite yet. :x
The 6 yr.old understands that we breed to eat..He knows that when they go into the grow out pen they are destined for freezer camp. He has watched me break down a fryer and cook it so he knows that we grew it and processed it. I answer his questions as they come up.But it is in a matter of fact way there is little emotion to it, because I don't want to influence him to think that it is bad or wrong..,
Right now he is curious about reproduction I am to old for that..I haven't given "the talk"in 25 years..

 

[Susie570]

Not to pry, but you have mentioned your son before..how old is he? I ask this because you mentioned processing videos...Also is he average or special needs? I am currently raising my two grandsons as most of you know, the older one is almost 10 and is moderately functional autistic, He lives in a different world from the rest of us...He would not understand and would most likely be temporarily traumatized by seeing it in person., but to him video, computer or tv, is more real than life..And food is a major issue..He will force himself to throw up if he doesn't like something..that can be traumatic for the whole family.
Now my almost seven year old is highly intelligent probably, even gifted... He understands the whole process but has not witnessed the processing .He has ask to be with me when I process but I don't think he needs to see that quite yet. :x
The 6 yr.old understands that we breed to eat..He knows that when they go into the grow out pen they are destined for freezer camp. He has watched me break down a fryer and cook it so he knows that we grew it and processed it. I answer his questions as they come up.But it is in a matter of fact way there is little emotion to it, because I don't want to influence him to think that it is bad or wrong..,
Right now he is curious about reproduction I am to old for that..I haven't given "the talk"in 25 years..

He turned 8 years old last month. I wouldn't call him 'special needs', he might possibly be on the autism scale... I'm not sure. He's very bright in many ways and kind of... awkward in other ways. Sometimes we tend to forget how young he still is and expect things from him that one would expect from a much older child, but that's partly because he behaves like a much older child (until things don't go his way, then he acts like a 2yr old) I don't know, he's confusing. lol

 

[Zass]

Everyone I know has some kind food texture issues. My husband will never eat a canned peach because he finds the texture nauseating.

I personally hate the texture of cooked chicken. And most cooked meats. Especially the commercial chicken of the last decade that never seems to get dry no matter how long it's been cooked...Anyone else notice that?

I didn't like meat as a kid either. I still do not really care for it. The rabbits are mostly for my husband, children and pets eat. I eat a small portion of meat about twice a week (usually breaded).

As an adult, I have found that I like the texture of rare or even raw meat. I'll eat sashimi and bloody steak, but a cooked pork chop grosses me out. :shrug:

We've been killing and processing in front of the kids from the start. Letting them watch the rabbits mate too. I've never kept secrets from my kids.

They were pretty young when we started. They are only 7 and 10 now. No one was traumatized.

We will never kill any animals they have a particular attachment to. That was made clear from the start. The velveteen lops serve as their "attachment bunnies."

My daughter helps me skin and process. My son doesn't care for meat either, but he's never upset by the killing and butchering.

I think showing them pics of the factory farming practices that we were attempting to avoid helped them understand exactly WHY we were doing what we were. I've never ever forced them to eat anything(in their lives), and both kids eat rabbit willingly.