Mini Champaigne D Argent

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Devon's Mom Lauren":2gf8brol said:
The Argente breeds are separate because they ARE distinct breeds, each has its own weight limits etc. They are also from different areas of France so are not related to each other and only share the silvering gene.
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Now I did not know this! How cool is that?! A whole country (small by our standards, but still) and they had all these little pockets of different breeds and they ALL ended up being versions of a silvered breed? I imagine they might have had a few common ancestors at one point, but it would have to be a really long time ago, or maybe they were developed separately from a native landrace? I am imagining little silvered wild rabbits hopping around...:)
 
Rachel I have crossed Thriantas with Harlequins and Silvers, the Creme crosses that I had were with a Satin Angora who had poor type, although she threw better than she was. Those were the silvered reds, and now that I think about it she also threw fawns as well in those crosses. My Thrianta buck is very compact, with excellant type, so shoulders was not a problem in my Harlequin and Silver crosses, he actually improved type on the babies by quite a bit, added bone too. Lionheads won't pass because there's too much conflict in the lionhead community, they refuse to work together, whole lot of Chiefs and no Indians. The mane gene is also tricky to work with, I've seen gorgeous Lionheads and hideous ones from the same litter. The reason why the Mini Satin passed so smoothly was because the parent club was backing them up and accepting of the creation of a mini version. I really feel that having a parent clubs blessing would be a real boon. Also who is holding the COD makes a huge difference. For instance there is a COD out on Lilac Satins, has been for years. The holder isn't doing what she's supposed to, and yet has held onto the COD not wanting to pass it to someone esle. Hopefully eventually it will pass on to someone more driven to see the Lilacs passed. I too feel that it would be counter productive to create different mini argent breeds separated only by color, and I'm doubtful that ARBA would go for it. Also there has to be interest, strong interest, and as I've said before 3 of the 4 silvered/argent breeds are on the rare list. While lops are accepted in silver I've only see one, a mini lop, its just not popular. Would write more but gotta run, its fair week and my DH is ready to shut the generator off, our electric has been out since sunday, won't be back until friday, I hope.

Added- Eco Silvers are the oldest known breed, they were supposedly found as a mutation in wild rabbits and purposely bred. All silvered or argent breeds come from Silvers. Its said that Sir Walter Raleigh brought Silvers back to England in the 1600's, and it was Silver Rabbits that were left on Enderby Island to breed for centuries.
 
Lauren, in a way, I totally agree with you and I feel similarly about my Thriantas. On the other hand, I have to wonder....the Brun's you all are working on here in N. Am. are considerably larger than the ones in Europe (which are the size of the Noirs) and when I asked why, Devon said it was because they would compete better against the likes of NZW. So, obviously you can see certain benefits in some cases of altering existing breeds for American/Canadian expectations.

I think the Argent breeds might not be so rare here in the states if they were one breed in multiple colors. If you look at the breeds that are popular today, most come in a multitude of colors whereas the breeds on the rare breed list with few exceptions come in only one or two colors. People like color, I guess. :) I think it's a pretty sure recipe for success in a new breed, and it's actually one reason I worry about my little Thrianta. God forbid red ever fall out of favor! Mini Satins, on the other hand, will probably only become more popular as more colors are accepted.

And of course you're right, type is paramount. But many folks, especially in a smaller breed which arbitrarily becomes a "fancy" breed due to its size, are highly unlikely to take up the cause if the color doesn't do it for them.

AND, especially if we are recreating the breeds over here anyway instead of importing pure lines (I'm not completely sure which is happening in this case,) then I particularly feel that that gives us license to do whatever works for us, here.

Honorine, who is your buck from? I need a shoulders parts rabbit.
 
Lauren: you said that perfectly. Thank you:)

Rachel: Ok the first of these rabbits that RunninMI friends got were the imports then bred some other breeds to improve TYPE...Both RunninMI(and he can correct me if im wrong) and friend is NOT planning on putting more colors in...they are working on type. Your opinion was heard but they are still going only have one color.
They will not really be considered a fancy breed, they will be more of a meat breed. More like the dutch you could say.
AND what works for one person, does not always work for all of us. As seeing the people trying to work on this are trying for one color.
 
LilFish_JWQueen(:":y8yz8hsn said:
Lauren: you said that perfectly. Thank you:)

Rachel: Ok the first of these rabbits that RunninMI friends got were the imports then bred some other breeds to improve TYPE...Both RunninMI(and he can correct me if im wrong) and friend is NOT planning on putting more colors in...they are working on type. Your opinion was heard but they are still going only have one color.
They will not really be considered a fancy breed, they will be more of a meat breed. More like the dutch you could say.
AND what works for one person, does not always work for all of us. As seeing the people trying to work on this are trying for one color.
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Exactly Exactly Exactly! we have the genetics we are working on type ONLY IN CHAMPAIGNE and we are developing a smaller meat breed. like the mini satin or dutch or havana or florida white etc. like it was stated each of the argent breeds are seperate for a reason. and in my opinion one a mini version of a breed should be identical to the standard breed except size, two a meat animal is about type (as any breed should be) and dont need alot of colors, and three when you start putting a bunch of colors in you lose type and you (as stated as earlier) start heading to the "lionhead issue" where so many people cant decide what they want so they wiill never be excepted. and i dont want that if my names on the cod which it most likely will be so
 
1) Dutch is a fancy breed.

2) The typiest rabbits out there (Possibly Mini Rex, IMO, debatable, I'm sure and of course it would vary) come in many, many colors. Color does NOT have to be a road block. In fact, I suggest having multiple colors BECAUSE of type! It would vastly open up your options for selecting for TYPE if you could go outside of a single color without fear of unshowable throwbacks down the line.

Alas, sounds like we don't see eye-to-eye. I will probably get Dutch if I do indeed need a smaller meat breed. (They come in quite a few colors, too.)

Edited to say: I also want to add that I'm NOT suggesting multiple colors be worked on simultaneously. Like with the mini satin and most other successful new breeds, start with a single color. However, hearing how adamant you are about never allowing other colors to be added down the line by other COD holders is a huge disappointment. Even the Thrianta comes in a BEW variation that is labeled a different breed in the Netherlands (Hulstlander) but I would be totally open to the two being combined under one breed name here in the states!
 
I know Dutch is a fancy breed. BUT it is also a meat breed. Mini Rex is NOT a meat breed along with being fancy breed lik the Dutch the Florida white ect...and the argents.

Again that's your opinion...but the people working on them have a different opinion. Why fight that when the people hat will proly have the ocds already are saying they have their minds made up. Why not respect the champagne breed and the country that started the argents with leaving it the same color? How disapointed would those people be?

.
 
LilFish_JWQueen(:":wbovfm8v said:
I know Dutch is a fancy breed. BUT it is also a meat breed. Mini Rex is NOT a meat breed along with being fancy breed lik the Dutch the Florida white ect...and the argents.

Again that's your opinion...but the people working on them have a different opinion. Why fight that when the people hat will proly have the ocds already are saying they have their minds made up. Why not respect the champagne breed and the country that started the argents with leaving it the same color? How disapointed would those people be?
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They all have the same body type, ideally, and are in the same weight class, so I don't see the difference. People eat mini rex, too. And there are lots of people that raise them that would simply die if you suggested eating a Dutch!

Anyway, I'm not fighting it, just said I'm very disappointed. Are YOU one of the people developing Argente Noirs?

Can ANYONE tell me the name of the person that imported the Argente Noirs, or the name of the person that is developing the mini Creme? I would like to talk more to them directly, rather than someone who, as far as I can tell, does not have them. (Not talking about you, RunningMI.) Just would love to talk to whoever it is you're getting your rabbits from. I'm a research-aholic, and I have questions! LOL
 
LilFish_JWQueen(:":1z1wbgjf said:
I know Dutch is a fancy breed. BUT it is also a meat breed. Mini Rex is NOT a meat breed along with being fancy breed lik the Dutch the Florida white ect...and the argents.

Again that's your opinion...but the people working on them have a different opinion. Why fight that when the people hat will proly have the ocds already are saying they have their minds made up. Why not respect the champagne breed and the country that started the argents with leaving it the same color? How disapointed would those people be?

.
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Disappointed? Perhaps, but the developement of something new always requires using something old to get there. Just because Rachel and I would like to see mini sized rabbits in various argent colors does not mean we disrespect the French and the original breed developers, no more than my raising White Shepherds shows disrespect to Germany and Max von Stephanitz.

Anyway, it's clear that the goals of RunningMI and partners are clearly laid out, which is good. It takes focus to reach a goal. I just would personally like to see mini versions of argents (or really, argents in general) in various colors. I guess I'll just have to mix them myself. They won't be shown, but it will be rewarding for me.


P.S.
RunningMI, if you do need help with your line of mini champagnes in the future, I'm still willing to help out by raising them at my place. My rabbit shed is also sort of our storage unit, but as soon as I get rid of some junk and a rather large old couch, I'm filling it with rabbit cages. :)
 
Rachel:

Actually there is maybe one person that raises dutch i could think of here that doesnt use dutch for eat so..

And YES I do have argents. Im runnin's girlfriend LOL and rabbits are my chore on the farm so yes they are practically MY rabbits too and the other person is a very good friend of mine (infact I introduced Parker to my friend cause of the argents) and he does not want his name on here so ive avoided sayin a name. He stays away from these forms for a reason.

So you want to talk to someone about the argents that has them? Talk to me or runnin(aka parker my boyfriend)

Robin:

Rachel had said it would be disappointing to not have other colors added...but i think lets say you had a breed meant for many colors in a different country but another country made it one? I would think youd be disappointed. Its the same the other way around.
Im ok with you both voicing your opinion(infact thats great) but im voicing mine too.
 
Ok, well maybe you can help me then, here are my questions:


How many people are working on them, and when were the Noirs brought over? What is the back story on the stock that was imported, how many and from what breeder, from where? What are the most common faults, and what is being "added" to the breed to "improve" it? Mothering ability and litter size?

You could PM me your friend's e-mail address. I understand not wanting to share a name in a public forum, but I am genuinely interested in this and would love to talk to him.

Thanks.
 
His information will not be shared as he has requested to not have it shared.

ok this is how it is simple and clean cut, I and the friend are working on a Mini Champaigne d argent, so they will only be in the variety of the standard champaigne d argent. I cant give you an exact date of when they were brought in (the noirs)atm there are only about five people total in the country I know of working with the rabbits at all and two of which are simply useing them for meat so breed and cull. as for me and the friend we are working on type improving shoulders is the first battle covered. we are not breeding for litter size as we are working on getting the cod and getting them recognized we are working on Quality not quantity. also the stock will not be just sold to everyone and anyone becasue of the way the lionheads have gone and now you have alot of people and yea so until they are recognized breeders are going to be selected specificaly for people who cull hard and are willing to work on what we want for our breed. also wether we wanted more colors or not as a mini champaigne they wouldnt be able to be recognized in other colors becasue the standards only have one color unlike the satins or rex which have more colors.

also i want to say this cause i have bad ocd and its driving me nuts. I have bred dutch for 14 I know alot of the breeders in the country and alot of them i know very well. they are a meat breed and the majority of the breeders use them or sell them to be used to be meat. any breeder that doesnt honestly cant be into breeding competitively casue its culling and too show and compete you have to cull and cull hard.
 
We just brought home a pair of Dutch, I must say while they are a 4 class just like the Mini Rex the similarities end there. Dutch have a true "meat-type" body quite different from the Mini Rex. We plan on eating the mismarks as well. :)
 
Now I'm confused, or perhaps I've misinterpreted your intentions. Do you want other people helping you breed these right now or not? I mean, I would probably be considered a "just anyone", I don't show my rabbits and nobody knows me really. However, the main purpose of my rabbits has always been meat, so I am not one to shy away from aggressively culling in an effort to get the very best of the best, working toward a goal... But I digress.

Anyway....
Offer still stands. Your mini champagnes have got cage space at my place if you want to go that route. My personal desires for coat colors are beside the point, because I can breed my own mutts to "play with genetics" so to speak, and to get various pelts for curing/sewing.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm still interested in helping out if that's what you want. :)
 
Oh robin i most deffinatly dont see you as a just anyone. I/we are just selective on who we choose and I havent spoken to you much nor do I know you other than on here. at this time you are one of the people i do hope to see help on this breed. I just one need to get a little more stock on the ground before i send some too you and also I think if we meet in person and can discuss this new breed and breeding in general it would be good. I mean I am not one to judge or assume (or at least i try not too) so i just would like to talk at a show or whatever get to know each other and make sure we can make sure we both understand the way we want to head with this breed. I think that if this is handled this way once these animals are excepted we will be ahead of the other newly accepted breeds where there was so many and they were all over and they start getting there differences before they are accepted if that makes since?


but all in all i do not see you as a just anyone and I look forward to meeting you and having you help introduce and get this new breed excepted! :)
 
None of this matters without a COD in place, and the necessary stock, funds and determination to carry it thru. Many have tried to create new breeds in the past, back in the 30's someone had a brainstorm to make a Rex coated Flemish Giant. Thats not the only failure, there's been many others. So I think I'll bide my time, see if this actually goes anywhere. The Lionhead nightmare should be a warning to us all of what can happen. One point that Lauren brought up I really do agree with- if this is an established breed in Europe why recreate it here? Why not just import it like the Thriantas, its a real breed, why try to create a similiar but not exact breed here? The hard work has already been done by european breeders, just doesn't make sense. They won't be real Argent Noirs, they will be an american version. I can see trying to create completely new breeds, and outcrossing to preserve and save rare breeds, but attempting to copy an existing breed with limited genetic material from that breed? I must admit I do question the logic of it.<br /><br />__________ Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:52 am __________<br /><br />Rachel my Thrianta buck is mostly Carr's lines I believe, think he's a Bozworth grandson, and my doe is Roods, Carr's and Pitchforks. Think the buck has three legs, never showed the doe, she's very compact and on the smaller side. I imagine that I have a far larger selection here in PA than you do, Thriantas are pretty common here. I should try and get one more litter out of my doe, but my pair are really just pets, just don't have the room to do another breed, and I'm trying to focus on the Silvers. Love the darn things though, sweetest rabbits in my barn, and I just love the color.
 
Cool. Will you be at Convention? I am hoping to make it down and would love to talk further. It might be the only chance I have to meet you all!<br /><br />__________ Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:58 pm __________<br /><br />Hey, I was looking for more pictures of the Argente Noir and Argente Bleu and found the Dutch "Silver" club which has combined all of the breeds, large and small, into one club. Check it out, it's pretty cool: http://www.zilverclub.nl/championshow2011.html

The Klein Zilvers are the small breed, some of them look like something between a Silver Fox and Silver (Small, but heavier build than what it seems the US Silvers have? Though i've never had my hands on one.)

I also found it interesting that the French Club (http://www.ffc.asso.fr/races_lapins/) only recognizes the Champagne and the St. Heubert, and the British Club seems to be most conclusive, recognizing them all....but in the UK the Champagne is the largest at around 8 or 9 pounds and the Creme is the smallest at about 5 lbs, and all the others come in at 6 lbs.

Here's good reading: http://home.netspeed.com.au/reguli/argente.htm

Sorry, I was just doing my researching and thought I'd share just in case anyone else was interested.
 
its in the air if i will be or not but I oughta make it for at least a day i mean its jsut a little bit down the road. but i wont have any rabbits there
 
Do you have Argente Noir's in the USA? They're smaller versions. I saw a picture (I think from Holland) once of an argente netherland dwarf, I don't usually like nethies but this was the most stunning rabbit I'd ever seen
 

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