Mini Champaigne D Argent

[RunninMI]

hononrine I personaly would say no only black since we are going at it as a mini version of the champagne. the havana is also used as a small meat breed (here anyway) and the dwarf actually really helped in the thick bodie. they feel like a fullsize champaigne just in a smaller package. easier for youth to work with and you get the color with less feed. I know around here latly it seems like people want the characteristicts of the large breeds like satins rex etc but dont want the large rabbits hence why there is mini rex and mini satins. I have to agree a mini creme would be something i could see in my barn but personaly dont have the time or space to play with two new breeds lol there is a blue that poped out of one of the litters so i gues if someone wanted to work with that it is possible. I personaly am going to only mess with blacks for now as what i want to go for is mini champaignes

 

[Honorine]

I am one of those folks who want the smaller breeds myself, I let all my large breeds go a few years ago. I figured out that one Flemish Giant ate as much as 5 Mini Rex, and decided to stick with the smaller more thrifty breeds. Sadly that meant that my Cremes and Lilacs went too. I was really thinking about this today while I cleaning rabbit trays, wondering if I had the opportunity to create a breed what would I do. I had the following idea- cross a Thrianta on a Creme d Argent to create a small 5-7 lb red argent breed, call it Argent Fire or something funky like that. Thriantas are a very compact breed, with lovely heads and ears, and good bone, crossed to a Creme with good meat charateristics, it would probably be possible to fix most charateristics by the third generation, because you really are only changing size and adding silvering. I've crossed Thriantas on other breeds before, you keep the heavier bone and rufus color first and second gen, it would be very easy to keep the red and short ears and heavy head. Would really want to increase flesh condition, as Thriantas can be a bit bony over the pins. I don't really 'do' Thriantas, I just have two as pets because their such cool little rabbits, and it would be neat to have an Argent form of them, but slightly larger and meatier. Geuss thats cause my fav bunny is a Thrianta. But seriously, a Red Argent, wouldn't that be cool? Think it might look pink? Then all the girls would want it!!

 

[eco2pia]

I happen to have a broken red doeling that got really poor markings. she had "freckles" instead of spots as a newborn. she looks kind of silvered red, and it looks like a red roan horse. My daughter loves it, so you are right all the girls would love it.

 

[PulpFaction]

I would seriously consider working on a COD for a mini Argent breed, particularly if it could be presented in multiple color varieties.

I am starting to experience a serious space crunch with the Silver Foxes growing out now, and have been remotely considering the possibility that I might need to stick to Thriantas or another small breed of similar size.

I think a Mini Argent would be sufficiently different from Silvers because of different body type and degree of silvering, and Champanges because of size. It would be amazing to also have the Mini in Chestnut, Chocolate, Blue, Red/Fawn, etc. That would be so fun! I like the idea of having multiple colors available under one breed, instead of having three distinct breeds as we do with the full size Argents in North America. It would create much wider appeal and a wider gene pool, I think.

But, even if a parent club were formed and it was decided to only pursue the Noir, I would still be interested.

 

[Honorine]

Few years ago I bred a red Satin Angora to a Creme, the result was very striking, reds that were about as silvered as a Silver Fox or Silver, really really sharp looking. It would be possible to add on more colors by crossing the Thrianta on Champagnes as well as Cremes. That would give you red, fawn, chestnut, black, and tort. 'If' you could get your hands on an Argent Brun there's your chocolate. Chocolate and dilute would take a few more generations. You could also just take the existing Argente Noirs and add colors in, I just like the Thrianta cross idea because of the red. I think its a really neat idea. Would love to see some pictures of the Argente Noirs, can't find many on the web.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Thanks Maggie!! Remember the old joke what do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual Two languages? Bilingual One language? American

Some years ago, I was on a train in Italy. Now, I am by no means fluent in Italian, but I had a rudimentary working knowledge. There was this old lady on the train who spent the entire ride talking about how stupid Americans were because they speak only one language, etc. RIGHT IN FRONT OF US!!! She just assumed that we spoke no Italian....made me really mad, :rant: but I just figured....eh, she's old, whatcha gonna do? LOL :wheelcha:

 

[PulpFaction]

Here is a photo of an Argente Noir: http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.or ... e_Noir.htm

I think Mini Rex would be good to introduce a variety of colors, possibly better than Thriantas. Thriantas mixed with black throw Gold Tipped Steel and Agouti. How was the type on the Creme x Thrianta mixes? In the photos I have seen of Cremes, they seem to have a fault also common in Thriantas, long shoulders. (I DESPISE these long shoulders!)

According to the British Rabbit Council, the Brun and the Noir are supposed to be the same size. How big is the Brun here in N. Am.?

Actually, it appears that the Bleu, Noir, St. Hubert (agouti), and Brun are all supposed to be smaller, up to 6 lbs. in the UK.

 

[Robin]

I would seriously consider working on a COD for a mini Argent breed, particularly if it could be presented in multiple color varieties.

I am starting to experience a serious space crunch with the Silver Foxes growing out now, and have been remotely considering the possibility that I might need to stick to Thriantas or another small breed of similar size.

I think a Mini Argent would be sufficiently different from Silvers because of different body type and degree of silvering, and Champanges because of size. It would be amazing to also have the Mini in Chestnut, Chocolate, Blue, Red/Fawn, etc. That would be so fun! I like the idea of having multiple colors available under one breed, instead of having three distinct breeds as we do with the full size Argents in North America. It would create much wider appeal and a wider gene pool, I think.

But, even if a parent club were formed and it was decided to only pursue the Noir, I would still be interested.

I agree with you 100%! "mini argents" in various colors would be very attractive. I have Cremes, suggest a smaller breed to cross with them and I will totally help work on it. I'm a stay-at-home mom, I need a project, lol.

RunninMI, if you're wanting someone to help you out with the lines you've already got going, I might be able to convince my hubby to build me some more cages and expand.

 

[RunninMI]

aight robin just might have to take ya up on that lol i gotta get them here and get some babies in boxes first but ill let ya know wen i got some to send ur way.

 

[tailwagging]

I am one of those folks who want the smaller breeds myself, I let all my large breeds go a few years ago. I figured out that one Flemish Giant ate as much as 5 Mini Rex, and decided to stick with the smaller more thrifty breeds. Sadly that meant that my Cremes and Lilacs went too. I was really thinking about this today while I cleaning rabbit trays, wondering if I had the opportunity to create a breed what would I do. I had the following idea- cross a Thrianta on a Creme d Argent to create a small 5-7 lb red argent breed, call it Argent Fire or something funky like that. Thriantas are a very compact breed, with lovely heads and ears, and good bone, crossed to a Creme with good meat charateristics, it would probably be possible to fix most charateristics by the third generation, because you really are only changing size and adding silvering. I've crossed Thriantas on other breeds before, you keep the heavier bone and rufus color first and second gen, it would be very easy to keep the red and short ears and heavy head. Would really want to increase flesh condition, as Thriantas can be a bit bony over the pins. I don't really 'do' Thriantas, I just have two as pets because their such cool little rabbits, and it would be neat to have an Argent form of them, but slightly larger and meatier. Geuss thats cause my fav bunny is a Thrianta. But seriously, a Red Argent, wouldn't that be cool? Think it might look pink? Then all the girls would want it!!

yes! I do soooo wish you were closer!

 

[PulpFaction]

aight robin just might have to take ya up on that lol i gotta get them here and get some babies in boxes first but ill let ya know wen i got some to send ur way.

Please keep me in the loop on this. I definitely want to help.

 

[Robin]

Great, keep me posted. I've got a few questions.

- what were the crosses originally used to get "mini champagnes"?
- how many generations have these lines been going?
- are they breeding true at this point?
- are you interested in expanding this to "mini argents" in general instead of just champagnes?

Like I said, I have Cremes now and if you wanted to try other colors I could work on getting them mini too. We should talk about this at length later on so I know how best to help you out with your goals. please feel free to message me any time.

 

[LilFish_JWQueen(:]

Theres actually someone already working on mini cremes(shes friends with the guy that RunninMI is getting the argents from)..being a whole separate breed. Not sure what she is exactly calling the though.

 

[PulpFaction]

It seems like it would be much more effective to apply for one breed COD with different colors, than apply for separate breed CODs!

Who is this mystery person that RunningMI knows with the Argente Noirs and the mini Cremes?

 

[LilFish_JWQueen(:]

Actually it wouldn't be more effective..it would be a repeat of the lionheads who are never going to be accepted because they tryed to do too many things at once and don't know what they want. It would be more effective to work on one thing at a time. And its two different people.

 

[PulpFaction]

Sorry, seems like it would be more like the Mini Satin than the Lion Head. Don't see the correlation. I don't see ARBA going for two different breeds where the only distinguishing factor is the base color.

 

[Robin]

I'm not sure how ARBA works that sort of thing. What I do know is that I for one would be far more interested in a breed that came in various colors, rather than several breeds that each came in one color. Variety is the spice of life, after all.

 

[LilFish_JWQueen(:]

Sorry, seems like it would be more like the Mini Satin than the Lion Head. Don't see the correlation. I don't see ARBA going for two different breeds where the only distinguishing factor is the base color.

ok exactly..they excepted the mini satin..which is the same as satin except smaller so why not this?

 

[PulpFaction]

There must be some miscommunication here...

Well, maybe it's this: I don't understand why the Argent breeds are separate breeds here in the first place instead of different varieties of the same breed, aside from the negligible size differences.

It just seems more efficient and desirable to have a single breed, so you can open up your bloodlines and have a wider pool for selection without worrying about throwback sports of the "wrong" color. A "Mini Argent" could do exactly that if they are all shooting for the same size range, and might not face the same problems the larger counterparts are facing in popularity, even though they lack the size of the more desirable meat rabbits.

Strategy, ya know. But that's just one approach.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

The Argente breeds are separate because they ARE distinct breeds, each has its own weight limits etc. They are also from different areas of France so are not related to each other and only share the silvering gene. Unfortunately here it seems they have been interbred etc, had their SOP's changed and on and on, but yes they are all ORIGINALLY separate! My question is why does an established breed from the UK/ France HAVE to be changed in the States? The Argente Noir is an established breed; has been for a very long time adding more colours makes it something other than a Noir. It is much easier to get established breeds accepted than to create a "new" one and get that accepted. The French, British and Germans are all excellent at doing what they do in breeding animals and have a long history of that, its too bad when said breeds hit the shores of America they no longer resemble the parent breed! I say that the Heritage breeds need to be saved not changed into something else. There are a huge number of American breeds on the ground now; saving, protecting some of these also needs to be considered. Don't get me wrong if you want to bring over the Noirs I am all for it but one needs to recognize that they have already been developed by others in other parts of the world! Also in order to "make" a new breed one needs to consider a lot more than the colour first!! The first thing is to establish TYPE! You need to make sure they are going to breed TRUE each and every time! Otherwise you don't have a true "breed". The very definition of purebred is that two parents exactly reproduce themselves each and every time. Once type is established then you could consider what colours need to allowed.