Looking at feed costs

[Comet007]

So far the organic feed that looks good is the Modesto pellets. It looks like I can only get them in Seattle and I think with sales tax it comes to about $36.11 for each 50 pound bag! I read on a rabbitry site where they just raise NZW's that a doe and litter combined will eat on average 3 1/2 to 4 pounds of feed per pound of the total litter weight gain.

Sooo… if you have a litter of 8, and plan to process them at 5 pounds - that would be 40 pounds total weight at processing. Assuming the high end of 4 pounds of feed, that would be 160 pounds of pellets for the doe and litter combined? Does that sound right? That comes out to $115.55 for the pellets alone! I guess the doe alone for 10 weeks, assuming she weighs 10 pounds) would eat 43.75 pounds of feed (10 oz/day x70 days) at a cost if $31.60. That means that the cost of feeding the litter is $83.95. If you get 3 pounds of meat per kit (does that sound right), then the end cost for the meat is $3.50 per pound.

Of course, this is just the pellets. I know there is also hay and mineral licks, etc. Plus all the little misc. costs of raising rabbits.

Does this sound right?? If so, I don't think I will tell the Hubster! Of course, we pay $6.50 a pound for our beef, $3.65/lb for whole chickens, and $12 or more for most of the pork we eat! So I guess it's still a bargain?

 

[Zass]

Perhaps you could find a source of organic rabbit for sale...and compare prices?

I've never seen organic rabbit for sale, but the average price of rabbit meat locally is 4.00/lb.

 

[Comet007]

Great idea. Do my feed cost calculations look right to you?

 

[Zass]

I can't seem to get #'s on paper to ever match reality :lol: .
I guess I'm better with animals than math.
Some lines are more feed efficient that others. But generally fast growers eat more, slower growers eat less. It seems to even out.

I looked up that feed...man I wish it was sold on this side of the US. I fear having it shipped wouldn't be very cost effective.
I did notice that it was 17 % protein.

My rabbits are more comfortable with 16%, but many meat raisers insist on 18%.

I rarely get 5 lbs at 8 weeks, but my fryers are never fatty and I find managing the does weights easier on a lower protein feed. I also like rabbits with nice compact bodies that dress out better at smaller weights. It's hard to explain, because it's something I identify by feel.

I guess the important thing is being careful to switch them over slowly. And once they are on the new feed, NEVER RUN OUT! Never switch feeds on kits under 8 weeks. (actually, I never switch feeds on fryers at all, I just finish them on whatever they started on)

You might be able to reduce costs by giving some organic grans (in a seperate dish, or they WILL dig out the expensive kibble to get to the grain) I give oats and I've seen barley and wheat commonly mentioned on here. I know there are more.

and since you have so many nice local farms, perhaps check if you can find organic alfalfa hay grown locally?

 

[TwoAcreDream]

I have pushed the pencil on organic grain for the chickens and the
rabbits. Our budget cannot afford it. If the price was closer to regular
grain, then I would consider it.
Currently we don't have plans to eat our rabbits. Maybe later.
I sell to the pet market and have sold some for breeding stock.
I am still figuring out which individual does I want to keep.
Plan is to get a addition on our chicken coop and the rabbit area.
That will happen in the spring. Then I can build more cages.

I would drive myself nuts sourcing organic feed. I like to feed my
animals different grains and I look for the best prices I can find.
Plan is to plant things for our critters to eat.

I have had lengthy conversations with several organic farmers.
There is a lot of cost involved to farm organic and be certified.

 

[BlueMoods]

Good grief, I'm glad I don't live there. That's crazy expensive. Here pellets are 15.00 per 50 lb bag. That makes the whole mess you listed just under 50.00 in pellets. Hay, grass, etc... I can get free and the cubes I give in winter are 17.00 for 50 lbs which lasts all winter.

Beef (ground) is 3.12/lb, chicken 2.48 and pork 1.98/lb.

I think I'll just stay put. I couldn't afford my rabbits, or the chickens with feed prices like that. I'd be shopping for better prices.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Sooo… if you have a litter of 8, and plan to process them at 5 pounds - that would be 40 pounds total weight at processing. Assuming the high end of 4 pounds of feed, that would be 160 pounds of pellets for the doe and litter combined? Does that sound right?

No. 160lbs to grow out the kits only.

That comes out to $115.55 for the pellets alone! I guess the doe alone for 10 weeks, assuming she weighs 10 pounds) would eat 43.75 pounds of feed (10 oz/day x70 days) at a cost if $31.60.

It would be $115.55 + $31.60= $147.15 divided by 24 = $6.13 per pound. That doesn't factor in the cost of feeding the buck, either.

If you get 3 pounds of meat per kit (does that sound right)

55-60% is about average dressout, I think.

Good grief, I'm glad I don't live there. That's crazy expensive.

She is planning on feeding organic pellets, which is why the cost is so high.

 

[GBov]

Have you tried finding non GMO feed instead of totally organic? It might be cheaper and still pretty good.

 

[DogCatMom]

So far the organic feed that looks good is the Modesto pellets. It looks like I can only get them in Seattle and I think with sales tax it comes to about $36.11 for each 50 pound bag! I read on a rabbitry site where they just raise NZW's that a doe and litter combined will eat on average 3 1/2 to 4 pounds of feed per pound of the total litter weight gain.

Sooo… if you have a litter of 8, and plan to process them at 5 pounds -[snip] then the end cost for the meat is $3.50 per pound.

Of course, this is just the pellets. I know there is also hay and mineral licks, etc. Plus all the little misc. costs of raising rabbits.

Does this sound right?? If so, I don't think I will tell the Hubster! Of course, we pay $6.50 a pound for our beef, $3.65/lb for whole chickens, and $12 or more for most of the pork we eat! So I guess it's still a bargain?

This thread from a couple of months ago discusses the price of rabbit meat in grocery stores. My experience is with a grocery store in the S.F. Bay Area. If people in the Bay Area could buy rabbit for $3.50/lb, there'd be a major run on rabbit.

Be sure you're comparing like to like: organically raised animals to organic feed. The price you quote for whole chickens ($3.65/lb) is very close to the per-pound price for Mary's (organic) air-chilled chickens out of the Central Valley in California. I don't eat much beef and no pork at all, but I bought a whole butchered lamb in Fall 2012 and a half-lamb, butchered, in Fall 2013. Each time, the lamb worked out to about $4/lb: grass-fed, organically raised (I know and have met the farmer through textile/fiber connections, but didn't receive any kind of discounted price--everyone paid this price; it included everything from leg of lamb to neck bones).

If you're doing bio-intensive gardening (Jeavons?), you'll also find that the value of the rabbits' fertilizer helps off-set their cost. Once your own garden is knee-deep in Bunny Berries, selling the "Berries" is a potential revenue stream, even if sporadic.

 

[PSFAngoras]

I'm switching my herd out to Modesto now, starting with the meat mommas and then I will phase the angoras out. The store I get mine from charges 34.95 per bag, at 16% protein. Since my angoras struggle on anything less than 18, I will be supplementing them with organic flax and sunflower seeds to reach a protein content of 18. (A one part supplement to 6 part pellets ratio...)

I know it won't be very cost effective, but since I do eat my rabbits it's important to me that they don't eat soy.

The only rabbits on the Modesto at this time are my meat mommas, one with a litter and one without. The doe with the litter doesn't even notice that the food is different , and the litter is chowing down, though it's still too soon to see how well they grow out compared to their old feed. The doe without the litter is being a pest and digging the organic food out of the feeder. She's known for having lots of 'personality' though, so it wouldn't be a normal day if she didn't give me grief.'

 

[JessiL]

I've chatted with the folks at Modesto Milling before, and they are very nice and sympathetic to small farmers' issues. They will sell you their products at a decent discount (near wholesale) if you pay to have a pallet's worth shipped over. Don't quote me on this, but as I recall, a pallet holds about a half ton, and to truck it over to Reno would be less than $200 - around $120 if I remember correctly. I crunched some numbers and found that this would lead to a pretty serious discount. Of course, the problem is how to deal with a half ton of feed? We don't go through quite enough to do it ourselves (though we do manage to go through about 200 lbs. a month), which is why we haven't taken them up on the offer, but I could see that it would be possible if we teamed with another few small operators. So it might be worth giving them a call and see what they could do to get something sent directly to you, if you can find enough folks to share the order.

Instead, we are exploring trying locally sprouted fodder, in the near future from organic seeds. It ought to pencil out at a more reasonable price than pellets. But first we're checking on whether we'll see the growth and health that we want when the buns are on fodder.

 

[Comet007]

Good grief, I'm glad I don't live there. That's crazy expensive. Here pellets are 15.00 per 50 lb bag. That makes the whole mess you listed just under 50.00 in pellets. Hay, grass, etc... I can get free and the cubes I give in winter are 17.00 for 50 lbs which lasts all winter.

Beef (ground) is 3.12/lb, chicken 2.48 and pork 1.98/lb.

I think I'll just stay put. I couldn't afford my rabbits, or the chickens with feed prices like that. I'd be shopping for better prices.

I think you might have missed the fact that all the prices I'm talking about are for certified ORGANIC food. You can get non-organic pellets here for the price you quote, and extra lean ground beef is less here than what you wrote at Costco.

I know a LOT of people, in the real world and online, who eat this or that organic food, but for me I didn't see the point in eating a few things organic and most other things not, so I do 90% organic and 10% not. At least that's the goal. The hormones and pesticides and all the other crud in meats, plus the "poisons" that are in processed foods are all inflammatory agents in our bodies when we eat them. I have TMJ, spinal stenosis and two bulging discs, osteoarthritis in my spine, shoulder and knee, plus fibromyalgia and mayofascial pain syndrome. This has been my life for the past four years (I just turned 43), all of these conditions have some sort of inflammatory aspect and wouldn't you know… I'm allergic to anti-inflammatories!! I can only use a topical on my shoulder and knee. Within about 90 days of switching to organic food 2 years ago I saw a limited decrease in pain in some areas of my body, which is worth it for me! I have worked really hard at sourcing food at the best possible prices, and on the whole we are spending the same now as before we switched to organic foods. There are some areas where we save SO much money that we can buy the pork or a few other things at higher prices and we still come out ok. To achieve this you just have to be willing to make your own convenience foods and cook primarily from scratch using whole foods. The cool part is that most meals we eat at home are restaurant quality or better. Rabbits and gardening are just the next step for us.

__________ Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:11 pm __________

Sooo… if you have a litter of 8, and plan to process them at 5 pounds - that would be 40 pounds total weight at processing. Assuming the high end of 4 pounds of feed, that would be 160 pounds of pellets for the doe and litter combined? Does that sound right?

No. 160lbs to grow out the kits only.

That comes out to $115.55 for the pellets alone! I guess the doe alone for 10 weeks, assuming she weighs 10 pounds) would eat 43.75 pounds of feed (10 oz/day x70 days) at a cost if $31.60.

It would be $115.55 + $31.60= $147.15 divided by 24 = $6.13 per pound. That doesn't factor in the cost of feeding the buck, either.

If you get 3 pounds of meat per kit (does that sound right)

55-60% is about average dressout, I think.

Hmmmm. That is quite a bit different! I believe that they were averaging the feed, assuming that you are feeding high quality pellets and hay. They are counting the fact that the babies eat no pellets for the first several weeks, and then eat more as they get older. I guess I will have to track my numbers and see! A 10 pound doe will eat on average 45.625 pounds of pellets in a 73 day breeding cycle (not counting any extra she eats due to nursing - I would count that as baby food). that is 91.25% of a bag of pellets, costing $32.95 + hay. That cost would actually be have to be added to the cost when calculating cost per pound for the meat - regardless of how many babies she has that make to fryer weight!! A very good reason to keep the best and eat the rest! $6.13 a pound is still pretty good for organic meat - and I did a search earlier today and could not find ANY organic rabbit meat for sale! I did find some that is "naturally" raised that was $7.50 a pound lol.

__________ Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:22 pm __________

Have you tried finding non GMO feed instead of totally organic? It might be cheaper and still pretty good.

Non-GMO is just part of the equation, and really it's just an unknown! No one knows yet for sure if it will have harmful effects so it's better to avoid it if you can IMHO. However, the real benefits of organic is no pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, fillers (though you have to watch labels), by-products, synthetic vitamins… the list goes on. I'm not a rabid organic food eater - when I eat in restaurants or away from home I just don't worry about it. There are some foods DH likes (mostly crap- chips, cold cereals with sugar, ice cream, etc.) and I don't mind, though I occasionally wonder aloud why he's eating poison for breakfast when there are raspberry oatmeal pancakes in the freezer and he just needs to pop them in the toaster. We have some other non-organic foods in the house when we get behind on our whole cooking and we just shrug it off, as it's just so time consuming that there are times we can't keep up (I haven't made yogurt in months lol). But I do so much better when I'm eating clean food that we always get ourselves back on track when life gives us a chance! That said, if I were going to plan non-organic rabbits I'm not sure it would be worth the effort for me.

However, if I could find something that equals the ingredients of the Modesto pellets and I REALLY believed that they followed all the certification requirements, I would buy that. Our beef is just such a case - the certification is just too expensive for a small operation.

__________ Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:35 pm __________

This thread from a couple of months ago discusses the price of rabbit meat in grocery stores. My experience is with a grocery store in the S.F. Bay Area. If people in the Bay Area could buy rabbit for $3.50/lb, there'd be a major run on rabbit.

Be sure you're comparing like to like: organically raised animals to organic feed. The price you quote for whole chickens ($3.65/lb) is very close to the per-pound price for Mary's (organic) air-chilled chickens out of the Central Valley in California. I don't eat much beef and no pork at all, but I bought a whole butchered lamb in Fall 2012 and a half-lamb, butchered, in Fall 2013. Each time, the lamb worked out to about $4/lb: grass-fed, organically raised (I know and have met the farmer through textile/fiber connections, but didn't receive any kind of discounted price--everyone paid this price; it included everything from leg of lamb to neck bones).

If you're doing bio-intensive gardening (Jeavons?), you'll also find that the value of the rabbits' fertilizer helps off-set their cost. Once your own garden is knee-deep in Bunny Berries, selling the "Berries" is a potential revenue stream, even if sporadic.

Yes, all the prices I quoted that I pay are for organic. The ranch where we buy our pork sells whole organic free range chickens for about $6.50 a pound - I've seen them, since we go there to buy our pork! I could get bulk pork there for much cheaper than we pay by the cut - but we eat so little of it! We have too many meat sources (100+ crabs/year, many salmon, some halibut, clams all courtesy of DH, then the beef & chicken) to be able to eat a lot of pork. I don't count the 100+ ducks per year, because I won't eat those! We found another source for organic, free range chickens at the $3.65/pound and that's what we've been paying for about a year and a half.

I was thinking when responding to the previous post that we also somehow have to factor the cost savings of the bunny berries! I will have to price out organic fertilizer and we will track how much we get to put on the garden. That way I can subtract out that amount from the cost per pound of the meat! Plus we are going to have worm beds under the cages, so that should be interesting. When we get chickens down the road they can eat the worms that don't go in the garden.

We are going to be doing a combination of the bio-intensive gardening and the square foot gardening. Since we'll be gardening all four seasons (using row covers and/or cover crops) - some of those cover crops we will be able to grow things that we can incorporate into the rabbits diet. I haven't delved into the how's and what's yet, but I know it can be done. We also have the SW corner of our property that we don't plan to do anything with right now - I think it's about 30-40 feet by about 25 feet. Surely we can grow some hay in that little space? :lol: :lol: :lol: Plus we have 6 apple and 3 pear trees. When DH trims those this month he is going to save the branches in bundles, and we will sterilize them just before putting them in with the rabbits, so we won't have to pay for chew toys!

__________ Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:41 pm __________

I'm switching my herd out to Modesto now, starting with the meat mommas and then I will phase the angoras out. The store I get mine from charges 34.95 per bag, at 16% protein. Since my angoras struggle on anything less than 18, I will be supplementing them with organic flax and sunflower seeds to reach a protein content of 18. (A one part supplement to 6 part pellets ratio...)

I know it won't be very cost effective, but since I do eat my rabbits it's important to me that they don't eat soy.

The only rabbits on the Modesto at this time are my meat mommas, one with a litter and one without. The doe with the litter doesn't even notice that the food is different , and the litter is chowing down, though it's still too soon to see how well they grow out compared to their old feed. The doe without the litter is being a pest and digging the organic food out of the feeder. She's known for having lots of 'personality' though, so it wouldn't be a normal day if she didn't give me grief.'

I'm glad I'm not the only one crazy enough to pay more than double the price to go organic! Though I truly do understand why people don't, as it does take a lot of time to work out a financially viable system for being all organic! I will be interested to hear how your litters grow out on the good stuff!

It sounds like you need a little catcher bowl under her food dish so you can save the fallen food! I'm sure that's not sanitary, but still…

The NZW production rabbitry where I got the feed formula said that they only feed their rabbits once a day in the evening. They said once they switched over to that almost all "playing with food" was stopped. Something about evenings being the time when rabbits naturally want to eat so they are more serious about it? I know I've read on other sites about people giving a smaller meal in the morning because of that cycle. I'm sure I'm not telling you something that you don't already know!

 

[ckcs]

I have a few question that I have wanted to ask about organic stuff for a while.

What about the hay, do you buy organic hay also? If so how much is that? I know there are certified organic meats but are there any checks on the organic feed? How far back does something have to go to be considered organic? Meaning it the plants are organic I assume the seed used to grow them would be organic. Is there a certain number of cycles the plant has to go through to be considered organic? I think the idea of eating everything organic is a good one, I simply can not afford it. I do often get organic stuff from the food pantry though

One site a breeder went into costs of meat. They fed 75% pellet, 25% hay. $12 for 50lbs feed, $7.50 a bale of hay. They came up with $2.66 lb dressed based on 2.5lb dressed each rabbit. That included bucks, does and kits. If their calculations are even close the would put your cost taking in account organic feed and $7.50 hay at $6.02 lb dressed. Less if you could get 3lb dressed in 8 weeks.

 

[Comet007]

I have a few question that I have wanted to ask about organic stuff for a while.

What about the hay, do you buy organic hay also? If so how much is that? I know there are certified organic meats but are there any checks on the organic feed? How far back does something have to go to be considered organic? Meaning it the plants are organic I assume the seed used to grow them would be organic. Is there a certain number of cycles the plant has to go through to be considered organic? I think the idea of eating everything organic is a good one, I simply can not afford it. I do often get organic stuff from the food pantry though

One site a breeder went into costs of meat. They fed 75% pellet, 25% hay. $12 for 50lbs feed, $7.50 a bale of hay. They came up with $2.66 lb dressed based on 2.5lb dressed each rabbit. That included bucks, does and kits. If their calculations are even close the would put your cost taking in account organic feed and $7.50 hay at $6.02 lb dressed. Less if you could get 3lb dressed in 8 weeks.

I will be buying certified organic hay also if I can find it. I am getting my very first rabbits in a couple weeks (hopefully), so I've never actually bought any hay yet! We have a pretty good Slow Food Movement going on here in Western Washington, so I'm really hopeful that I can find organic hay locally! I think that I need to get on the phone to the ranches where I buy my beef & pork and my local co-op, hopefully I can get some good leads. This may be the hardest time of the year to get the good organic stuff, so I may have to settle for the "naturally" grown certified weed-free hay that I've found locally so far. At least until the new season rolls around and we can get in with an organic farmer. I hope hope hope not though!

I believe that to have a crop certified you have to apply and be inspected and then there is a waiting period of several years before you can be certified. If you see any products that are labeled "transitional" this is what they are talking about. We don't mind transitional foods, because it usually means it's been several years that all the organic protocols have been followed. If something is organic, the seller should be able to show you their certificate as proof. Even at roadside stands they are not allowed to say the produce is organic if they don't have proof on site that you can look at - and I always do look!

To be organic, yes, you have to use organic seed. Interestingly, for rabbits, to be organic not only does all their food provided need to be organic, they have to be in a cage that allows them to be on the ground eating naturally from the land. They also can't have any antibiotics, hormones, etc. I do think that if I were to sell a certain percentage of my litters as meat (if I feed them all organic food) that I could probably offset a high percentage of my food costs! One of my clients (of European descent) loves rabbit - she recently paid $38 for a rabbit dinner at a restaurant, and it wasn't organic! I sort of have a built in market because I run my nail salon from my home. I have given many of my clients food items to take home - jams, applesauce, pepper jelly, crab mac & cheese, fruit leather, etc. I sometimes bake cookies so they can have a snack when they come in. All organic, of course! I've had so many people ask if they could buy food items from me, but I'm not sure it would be worth the $350 first year expense and I think $225 every year after for my Cottage Food permit.

OH!!! I almost forgot! If you sell less than $5,000 of organic rabbits, you CAN sell them as organic IF you follow all the protocols! Now I'm wondering… how much hay can I grow in that little corner on our property? :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[TwoAcreDream]

I believe that to have a crop certified you have to apply and be inspected and then there is a waiting period of several years before you can be certified. If you see any products that are labeled "transitional" this is what they are talking about.

There is a farmer locally who is organic with several of their farm products.
Their chickens are fed organic grain, but because they feed table scraps,
they can't call their eggs as organic. They rent some property from a
farmer on our road. The one field has to be 5 years before a crop from it
can be called organic. There was manure and fertilzier used on it.

I sell eggs. I get the organic question a lot. I tell people I practice
organic methods. No sprays, no chemicals , and no medicines used.
Only natural fertilzier used, manure. My grain is not organic as our
budget cannot afford the cost. I have to sell to a more broad
market than to sell to a selective few that will pay more for organic.
If I lived near a big city, and had a bigger customer base, then maybe
I would push the organic. In the meanwhile, it is what it is.

 

[PSFAngoras]

I work for a certified organic plant nursery and the verification process is both lengthy and expensive, unfortunately. With animals it's even worse.

I've basically come to the conclusion that while a certified source is nice, local, natural grown is what I look for when buying meat and vegetables, if I can't grow hunt, raise, or grow them myself. (Basically local farms and farmers markets).

 

[Comet007]

There is a farmer locally who is organic with several of their farm products.
Their chickens are fed organic grain, but because they feed table scraps,
they can't call their eggs as organic. They rent some property from a
farmer on our road. The one field has to be 5 years before a crop from it
can be called organic. There was manure and fertilzier used on it.

I sell eggs. I get the organic question a lot. I tell people I practice
organic methods. No sprays, no chemicals , and no medicines used.
Only natural fertilzier used, manure. My grain is not organic as our
budget cannot afford the cost. I have to sell to a more broad
market than to sell to a selective few that will pay more for organic.
If I lived near a big city, and had a bigger customer base, then maybe
I would push the organic. In the meanwhile, it is what it is.

The five years sounds right to me. Any manure used HAS to be from organic livestock. If you tell everyone that you sell eggs to what you just said here, then probably no one can feel misled by an egg purchase from you. However, if someone were to tell me that they follow organic methods, but feed non-organic grain I wouldn't purchase any eggs - to me that says the seller is picking and choosing which regulations to follow. This would make me suspicious that if they NEEDED to use non-organic medications if their herd/flock got sick, they would do it. Also, I don't know much about chickens, but I'm assuming grain is a huge part of their diet? Definitely not organic in my book, but a lot of people even who try to eat organic food don't have enough understanding of the various elements to catch this. With every local product around here that I have researched (many many!), where people will say that they follow organic practices and just can't afford to pay for certification, it TRULY means that they follow all of the practices to the letter. Those are the only products that I will purchase. Generally many people will pay the same amount of money even without the actual certification if they truly trust that all organic practices are being met. I'm sure this sounds harsh - but remember you're talking to someone who will pay what it's worth for organic food!

Interesting to note - a chicken can be organic and NOT free range! We make sure all our chickens and eggs purchased are both. Free range birds and therefore eggs are just more nutritious! <br /><br /> __________ Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:13 am __________ <br /><br />

I work for a certified organic plant nursery and the verification process is both lengthy and expensive, unfortunately. With animals it's even worse.

I've basically come to the conclusion that while a certified source is nice, local, natural grown is what I look for when buying meat and vegetables, if I can't grow hunt, raise, or grow them myself. (Basically local farms and farmers markets).

I think this really depends on location - it seems that in Western Washington there are a lot of people who are convinced of the advantages of organic food. As I mentioned before, if you source food and cook the way we do it actually becomes quite affordable.

 

[the reluctant farmer]

Comet007, I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you say. Not about the advantages of organic food, but about your faith in organic certification and people saying they follow organic practices. Over the years I've seen the term "organic" become co-opted as industry has discovered that people will, indeed, pay more for it. The original intent in certification was good--to make sure that what people were claiming is actually what they were delivering, and for consumers to be able to have faith in what they are purchasing. The unintended result has been that it is harder and more expensive (sometimes close to impossible) for a small/beginning farmer to achieve organic status, while with a few tweaks of the bill the few large corporations that control commercial food production have been able to carry on as usual, maybe add a few changes on to their production houses then slap an organic stamp on their products and still ship them half-way across the nation, same as before,but charge you & I 1/3 to double the price as before. And as you've seen for yourself from the "organic/not free range" label, people can follow the letter of the law and still not be doing what's best for the animal or what results in a better food choice for the purchaser.

I entirely agree with your logic about organic, and that the food that results is better for us. I disagree about a consumer thinking that a grower not being able to afford certification or compromising on some parts because of costs is more likely to use non-organic meds. That is based on my personal experience, not anything else. Unfortunately, I really don't believe any of what I am told by sellers until I can see their farm, or until I get the "dirt" from other people I know who are familiar with their practices. As most of us have moved farther away from how food is produced, we really don't know what are good practices for animals or plants. Grain-fed chickens, for example: they are meant to eat bugs and meat in addition to plants and grain. Not having them consume "animal products" isn't good; however, what passes for "animal products" in commercial lots is the problem. Chickens eating bugs & mice=good, chickens eating other dead chickens or diseased critters=bad. But that information isn't differentiated for us consumers, so we end up making choices based on our interpretations, not on our knowledge of food production. That puts us at a disadvantage and at the mercy of people who are good at selling their own agenda.
Anyhow, not trying to pull this off topic, but did want to say keep asking & checking to be sure what you're paying for in feed or food is actually worth the cost.

I really miss some of the companies who were trusted organic food producers. Many are still in existence, but are a subdivision of the big Five (or is it 3?) companies that pretty much own everything. I'm with PSFAngoras--I worry less about the organic label now than I used to, and instead look for my local farms and getting to know the folks at my local farmer's market. I'd rather buy pecans from the 88 year old farmer who has lived here all his life, and may/may not be fully organic but eats what he produces, than the shop that is selling me organic strawberries in February that come from someplace in the U.S. and that I have no idea what they are actually doing. I love that it sounds like you are finding sources who are both organic and local, and that you are checking out what they are saying to see that it is true.

 

[TwoAcreDream]

I wanted chickens for us to have our own eggs. And a few meat chickens. Next thing I know I am selling the extra eggs. Our hens free range in their yard and then half the day, the gate gets open and they are loose and on their own. This way I know where the eggs are. I get a lot of compliments on my eggs and have repeat customers. I am willing to feed organic but have not been able to afford to. In the winter, I have 2 customers who buy in bulk. As soon as this cold snap breaks, the incubator will be turned on. I will only have to worry then to keep enough in the house for us.

Organic certification is costly. Too many hoops to jump through. Not for me.

I just found a farmer locally who tells me his grain is organic. At a price I can afford. Beats the mill price for regular grain. He is not certified. I don't care about that piece of paper. I believe him. So when I sell eggs and get asked that organic question, I can say my eggs are natural. I can't claim organic without that piece of paper. That is really sad.

The grain farmer said something interesting. He said...
" You tell the customer what THEY want to hear "

 

[Comet007]

Comet007, I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you say. Not about the advantages of organic food, but about your faith in organic certification and people saying they follow organic practices. Over the years I've seen the term "organic" become co-opted as industry has discovered that people will, indeed, pay more for it. The original intent in certification was good--to make sure that what people were claiming is actually what they were delivering, and for consumers to be able to have faith in what they are purchasing. The unintended result has been that it is harder and more expensive (sometimes close to impossible) for a small/beginning farmer to achieve organic status, while with a few tweaks of the bill the few large corporations that control commercial food production have been able to carry on as usual, maybe add a few changes on to their production houses then slap an organic stamp on their products and still ship them half-way across the nation, same as before,but charge you & I 1/3 to double the price as before. And as you've seen for yourself from the "organic/not free range" label, people can follow the letter of the law and still not be doing what's best for the animal or what results in a better food choice for the purchaser.

I entirely agree with your logic about organic, and that the food that results is better for us. I disagree about a consumer thinking that a grower not being able to afford certification or compromising on some parts because of costs is more likely to use non-organic meds. That is based on my personal experience, not anything else. Unfortunately, I really don't believe any of what I am told by sellers until I can see their farm, or until I get the "dirt" from other people I know who are familiar with their practices. As most of us have moved farther away from how food is produced, we really don't know what are good practices for animals or plants. Grain-fed chickens, for example: they are meant to eat bugs and meat in addition to plants and grain. Not having them consume "animal products" isn't good; however, what passes for "animal products" in commercial lots is the problem. Chickens eating bugs & mice=good, chickens eating other dead chickens or diseased critters=bad. But that information isn't differentiated for us consumers, so we end up making choices based on our interpretations, not on our knowledge of food production. That puts us at a disadvantage and at the mercy of people who are good at selling their own agenda.
Anyhow, not trying to pull this off topic, but did want to say keep asking & checking to be sure what you're paying for in feed or food is actually worth the cost.

I really miss some of the companies who were trusted organic food producers. Many are still in existence, but are a subdivision of the big Five (or is it 3?) companies that pretty much own everything. I'm with PSFAngoras--I worry less about the organic label now than I used to, and instead look for my local farms and getting to know the folks at my local farmer's market. I'd rather buy pecans from the 88 year old farmer who has lived here all his life, and may/may not be fully organic but eats what he produces, than the shop that is selling me organic strawberries in February that come from someplace in the U.S. and that I have no idea what they are actually doing. I love that it sounds like you are finding sources who are both organic and local, and that you are checking out what they are saying to see that it is true.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you respectfully disagreeing with me… if you go back and read my posts carefully, you will see that we DO in fact purchase some "transitional" foods, as well as some where the grower/rancher is following ALL of the protocols to be organic but just don't want/can't afford to pay for the certification. I am well aware of the great expense for a small operation, as I am aware of the lack of integrity in some areas of the certification process. It is after all run by the government who answers to big business.

You say that you disagree with me saying "a consumer thinking that a grower not being able to afford certification or compromising on some parts because of costs is more likely to use non-organic meds". This isn't really what I said. What I said is: if someone tells me that they "follow all organic standards" and then in the next breath says, "except for grain, that's too expensive" then 1) I think, grain is an integral part of the feed, so that chicken is nowhere close to organic anymore, and 2) I think, if grain is too expensive -how expensive might it be to lose part of a herd vs. bringing in some antibiotics?. That is just an example of something that could arise. There are other ways that they could wander from organic protocols and since they're not certified, they are on the honor system. I'm sorry, but if a chicken is eating grains that have been sprayed with pesticides, might be GMO, etc - the egg is still likely healthier (for sure!) than the ones in the grocery store - but they haven't followed organic practices. If that chicken gets actual sunshine and exercise, then it's better still - regardless of being organic. But - for someone who needs for health reasons to avoid those hormones, pesticides, antibiotics and who knows what else, it's just not the same. I don't think people in general even know how many of our health problems today stem from our corrupted agriculture in this country. Not the people on here - after all, isn't that one of the biggest reasons we all got started with rabbits?

You sound like you think I haven't done my research in regard to the food we eat. I am new to rabbits, I am NOT new to organic foods. I've done intensive research - the same way I am now doing on rabbits, it's how I'm made. No one gets our hard earned money until I'm convinced that's where our dollars should go. There are organic food companies that are certified and I won't buy their products. There are ingredients in certified organic foods that I won't eat, such as canola, agave syrup & soy. I know exactly how the beef, pork and chicken that I purchase and eat are raised - I've been to the farms/ranches and spoken to the operators, and I've spoken to many sources about them, including the local co-ops and independent butcher shops who know them. The local farmers markets that we go to, or the other sources I buy from - word of mouth tells me who does what they say and who doesn't. The world of this of industry is a small one in our area, and if you do your research and talk to people the way I do, the truth almost always comes out. Quite a few of the smaller operations around here have, in fact, spent the money on their certifications. Others will tell you if they follow ALL organic practices but just are not certified.

Anyone who follows SOME or MOST organic practices who then tries to tag on the "grown/raised following organic practices" gets slapped down pretty hard by others in the local industry and their customers when they get found out. There's a gal here on the island where we live - she sells bulk beef, chickens, eggs and vegetable and her signs on the street directing you to her farm all say "organic" this, that and the other thing. There's not one person I know on this island or the town right on the mainland who DOESN"T know that she does NOT have organic certification and is breaking the law. Most people would be fine with it if it weren't for her false claims - WE would buy from her if she would only phrase it differently. As it is she struggles to make money because people generally don't trust her. Her making that claim of BEING organic is not fair to the many other small farmers/ranchers who paid the fee and jump through the hoops.

I truly don't mind that we are going off topic here. I understand the frustration that is met by someone who has a small operation and is seemingly being held back by the government and corporations. I think I understand what you're saying - that many people believe that "USDA certified" seal is the absolute guarantee that you are only getting the best, healthiest foods available. Unfortunately, we as the consumer don't get to stop there if we really want to watch our foods.

There's another thing not even mentioned - and that's the ETHICS of certain foods! Agave syrup and coconut sugar are two foods that I try very hard to avoid, even when they're organic. I'm not sure if it's true, there are people who should know on BOTH sides of the issues - but it seems that agave syrup harvesting calls for the destruction of the plant to produce, which SHOULD have disqualified it as organic. Coconut sugar harvesting means that the tree doesn't get to the stage of producing actual Coconuts - again, there are people who should know on BOTH sides of the argument! Since this uber healthy sweetener might become a fad and cause producers to make more sugar instead of healthy coconut milk and coconut oil, I'm not sure of the ethics of consuming it! So for myself, I've decided that I will just not eat these two things unless some day someone can convince me that it's ethical to do so! Please don't try now, though, I'm in rabbit mode! Just more "food" for thought, lol.

__________ Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:19 pm __________

I wanted chickens for us to have our own eggs. And a few meat chickens. Next thing I know I am selling the extra eggs. Our hens free range in their yard and then half the day, the gate gets open and they are loose and on their own. This way I know where the eggs are. I get a lot of compliments on my eggs and have repeat customers. I am willing to feed organic but have not been able to afford to. In the winter, I have 2 customers who buy in bulk. As soon as this cold snap breaks, the incubator will be turned on. I will only have to worry then to keep enough in the house for us.

Organic certification is costly. Too many hoops to jump through. Not for me.

I just found a farmer locally who tells me his grain is organic. At a price I can afford. Beats the mill price for regular grain. He is not certified. I don't care about that piece of paper. I believe him. So when I sell eggs and get asked that organic question, I can say my eggs are natural. I can't claim organic without that piece of paper. That is really sad.

The grain farmer said something interesting. He said...
" You tell the customer what THEY want to hear "

You will be able to sell eggs like wildfire here! We have several people here on the island who sell eggs from the same kind of set up you have. If you had organic feed, and were following all of the other practices to be organic, we would happily buy our eggs from you! It's not truly about the piece of paper, it's about whether you do the things required to qualify if you were to apply! I really think that the certification isn't for the people who could interact with you personally. Someone local can ask you what you feed the chickens, whether you use medications, whether there are any fertilizers present, do they have access to scratch in the dirt and eat bugs and worms and get sunlight. They might even be able to look at your chickens and housing situation and at a feed bag if they REALLY wanted to be sure!

I think certification is for the benefit of people who want to bump up the scale of their operation and sell in stores the next town over, or the next state. Those people can't talk to you, so they want to see that beautiful little green seal on the package. As I mentioned in my last posts, sometimes even with that seal of approval, we still have to read all ingredients and be educated about all of them. It's really exhausting sometimes!!

I will say - I wouldn't trust the farmer. I mean, you know him, so you might and that's fine. But someone who has that view the you just tell the customer what they want to hear is the reason we NEED certification! I am the customer - I don't just want to hear it, I want it to be true. It's not a fad for me, it's because I desire the healthiest food possible. I'm sure he was just speaking out of frustration, but if you really think about what he said, that's just missing the point entirely!