Is this a Vienna marking?

[user 8990]

Hey everyone! I am currently in a debate about this rabbit. Vienna or no? Both are black. I see Vienna in the first photo but not in the second. Please correct me if I’m wrong! Thank you in advance!!

 

[user 8990]

Second photo posted twice, oops!

 

[judymac]

Not sure what you are seeing that looks Vienna. Usually, you see a white snip/blaze/star on the face, white on the front toes, maybe a bit of a white collar. Some have a lot more white, some just a few hairs. I'm just not seeing it here, where are you looking that seems iffy?

 

[user 8990]

Not sure what you are seeing that looks Vienna. Usually, you see a white snip/blaze/star on the face, white on the front toes, maybe a bit of a white collar. Some have a lot more white, some just a few hairs. I'm just not seeing it here, where are you looking that seems iffy?

The very tip of the nose is white and when her nostrils flare, it’s white.

 

[user 9638]

Do you know if parents/grandparents.G.Gparents have/carry vienna?

 

[user 8990]

Do you know if parents/grandparents.G.Gparents have/carry vienna?

There’s no Vienna on the pedigree at all. But Vienna can hide for many generations. Seeing the two black siblings side by side it’s really obvious. One is just black, nostrils included and the other one has white that it’s easier to see from the side. I’ve been vehemently told repeatedly that it’s not Vienna. Then what else do I call a black doe with white nostrils? A black doe with white nostrils?

 

[user 9638]

Possible call her a Black VC? Just so people know she is a possibly vienna carrier or your could say light vienna black doe

 

[user 8990]

Possible call her a Black VC? Just so people know she is a possibly vienna carrier or your could say light vienna black doe

That’s what I see too, a lightly marked Vienna. But the breeder is being so defensive and told me they were just done explaining it to me. So I guess I’m blind AND stupid. Sorry, this is just incredibly frustrating.

 

[user 9638]

I think it is a light vienna, and you should go with your beliefs at this point since the breeder is being so weird about it

 

[user 8990]

I think it is a light vienna, and you should go with your beliefs at this point since the breeder is being so weird about it

Thank you Jaz and everyone who replied. I’ve had rabbits for most of my life and am attempting to learn the genetics as quickly as possible. Thing is, I’m not looking to be right for the sake of being right. My eyes are sharp and I see white, period. Now if there’s a rule that states that the nostrils don’t count as Vienna, then I genuinely want to know what to call it. I like the breeder but I’m not thrilled with the way they handled this. Said they have to protect their rabbits. What does that even mean? Is Vienna such a horrible thing that someone would be nasty about it. For what it’s worth, I wasn’t complaining to the breeder about it at all. They contacted me! Can someone please help me understand this? I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks again to everyone on this forum. I’ve learned so much here.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you Jaz and everyone who replied. I’ve had rabbits for most of my life and am attempting to learn the genetics as quickly as possible. Thing is, I’m not looking to be right for the sake of being right. My eyes are sharp and I see white, period. Now if there’s a rule that states that the nostrils don’t count as Vienna, then I genuinely want to know what to call it. I like the breeder but I’m not thrilled with the way they handled this. Said they have to protect their rabbits. What does that even mean? Is Vienna such a horrible thing that someone would be nasty about it. For what it’s worth, I wasn’t complaining to the breeder about it at all. They contacted me! Can someone please help me understand this? I sure would appreciate it.
Thanks again to everyone on this forum. I’ve learned so much here.

It sounds like a weird situation with the breeder; I suspect that maybe he/she doesn't actually know very much, and is protecting himself or herself, not the rabbits! There certainly is a color other than black on the rabbit's nose! White marks can come from the vienna gene, but also from other genetic sources (some not well-known) and/or damage/injury.

That said, Vienna markings are any marks that come from the Vienna gene <v>... there aren't any rules about where or how much. I have never seen VM only on the nostrils; that always makes me think otter/marten, though like I said, it is impossible to predict exactly where VM will show. I can't see his ears, feet or tail, which would give a clue about that. Does your rabbit have any other places on its body that are not black?

Here is a himi Satin that also has otter/marten markings:


Of course the ideal thing would be to breed your rabbit to a BEW - you'd almost certainly get a BEW or two from that match, if your rabbit is indeed VM.

 

[user 8990]

It sounds like a weird situation with the breeder; I suspect that maybe he/she doesn't actually know very much, and is protecting himself or herself, not the rabbits! There certainly is a color other than black on the rabbit's nose! White marks can come from the vienna gene, but also from other genetic sources (some not well-known) and/or damage/injury.

That said, Vienna markings are any marks that come from the Vienna gene <v>... there aren't any rules about where or how much. I have never seen VM only on the nostrils; that always makes me think otter/marten, though like I said, it is impossible to predict exactly where VM will show. I can't see his ears, feet or tail, which would give a clue about that. Does your rabbit have any other places on its body that are not black?

Here is a himi Satin that also has otter/marten markings:
View attachment 35534 View attachment 35535 View attachment 35536 View attachment 35537

Of course the ideal thing would be to breed your rabbit to a BEW - you'd almost certainly get a BEW or two from that match, if your rabbit is indeed VM.

Excellent points and beautiful rabbits! You’re absolutely right, that is entirely probable. Definitely getting some better photos once I have help. Hopefully that will help. She’s a squimy doe and she’s just not cooperating for flash photography.

 

[user 8990]

Loved the idea of BEW as a litter sire. Excellent and it would confirm or deny!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Excellent points and beautiful rabbits! You’re absolutely right, that is entirely probable. Definitely getting some better photos once I have help. Hopefully that will help. She’s a squimy doe and she’s just not cooperating for flash photography.

The most obvious areas to look to identify marten on a solid-colored rabbit are the belly and undertail.

If your rabbit is otter/marten, its belly and undertail will be lighter than the rest of it (silver, white or off-white); if it is self, its belly and undertail will not be pale. Thus if it's the same color above and below, you could eliminate marten. (That's why marten himis and otter/marten brokens are so much harder to spot.)

Eye rings are another clue, which I can't tell from in your original photo, but I've had otters without them, so while eye rings do mean otter/marten, the absence of eye rings is not diagnostic. But as far as I know, a dominant tan gene will always produce a pale belly.

If it's truly a self with tiny white marks, I would indicate that by a note on the pedigree, rather than assigning a VM/VC designation without actually knowing that's what you have.

I'd love to hear what happens if you can find a BEW sire. Do note that you should get BEWs if the doe is VM/VC, but it's not an absolutely sure thing.

 

[Sapphire16]

The breeder my be concerned as Vienna markings are very desirable to some breeders, but depending on breed, may not be show able. Other breeders do not want the Vienna gene as it like the eg tri gene can mess up markings. As I am breeding for tricolor but also have otter, agouti, and self, I am very up front if a kit carries tri. That may be what their issue is, or not, lol? The photo of the eye doesn't look blue to me, but maybe marbled? Can't tell for sure, as the color of the eyes are helpful. I'm not very educated on Vienna but I think that blue eyes or marbled eyes along with markings are an indication??

 

[hotzcatz]

Vienna is an instant DQ in English angora so it's not considered desirable. FWIW, you can show the BEWs but not anything with any Vienna marks. There's very little Otter in English angoras, so most likely it's just that your doe's nose is white on the inside. I'd guess it isn't Vienna, that doesn't usually show up inside the nostrils, does it? I've got one black doe who has about seven white hairs on her nose, her littermate and sister is entirely black, not even a white toenail.

Does your doe with the white inside her nostrils have a white toenail? That's another indicator of Vienna.

 

[user 8990]

Vienna is an instant DQ in English angora so it's not considered desirable. FWIW, you can show the BEWs but not anything with any Vienna marks. There's very little Otter in English angoras, so most likely it's just that your doe's nose is white on the inside. I'd guess it isn't Vienna, that doesn't usually show up inside the nostrils, does it? I've got one black doe who has about seven white hairs on her nose, her littermate and sister is entirely black, not even a white toenail.

Does your doe with the white inside her nostrils have a white toenail? That's another indicator of Vienna.

Here’s a better picture. I’m going to have to check her toenails.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Here’s a better picture. I’m going to have to check her toenails.

Honestly, it still has the look of otter (A), in fact in this photo it looks tan rather than white.

Underneath her chin/chest looks like it may be lighter as well (B), but it's hard to know exactly what part I'm looking at, and wool being lighter than fur might be what I'm seeing. It's hard to tell with the extreme close-ups. Can you post a picture of the whole rabbit?
White toenails can appear for many reasons other than Vienna, as can stray white hairs, but I've not seen nostril markings associated with those.
What is that curve of white at the top left (C)?
And is her belly lighter than her back?

 

[user 8990]

She’s completely black except for her nose tip and inside her nostrils. Maybe it looks tan because it is mucous membranes? I’ll try to get some better photos in natural daylight.