Is my rabbit a true Charlie?

[Cosima]

Doesnt have enough markings to be a charlie, so she's a false Charlie

How can a rabbit have to little markings to be a Charlie. The doe looks like a castor Charlie to me.

 

[ladysown]

I wouldn't consider her a charlie. She has a fair bit of colour along her back and colour around her eyes and on her nose. The lightness of her colour would make getting brokens out of her fairly easy.

She might be a harlequinized tort or chestnut as she has some spotting on her ears.

you can get tricolours out of any rabbit (charlie or not) who is at least harlequinized depending on what the male carries.

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

How can a rabbit have to little markings to be a Charlie. The doe looks like a castor Charlie to me.

If the color is about 10% or less then it's a false charlie

 

[ladysown]

If the color is about 10% or less then it's a false charlie

No. A charlie is a rabbit with 10% or LESS colour. Anything more, is a false charlie, and is a broken.

 

[ladysown]

Doesnt have enough markings to be a charlie, so she's a false Charlie

I suspect you are confused about what a charlie is. A charlie is a rabbit who is basically white with just a little bit of colour (like 10% or less). Rabbits is just a wee bit more colour can be called false charlies, but really are just broken with very little colour.

 

[Cosima]

I had a rabbit with 5% color but with a false Charlie and a solid parent.

 

[ladysown]

I had a rabbit with 5% color but with a false Charlie and a solid parent.

THIS rabbit is a charlie.

 

[Cosima]

But the parents?

 

[Cosima]

Is a Charlie rabbit a rabbit with 10% or less colors or a rabbit with two copies of the broken gene?

 

[ladysown]

But the parents?

solid parent is not a charlie and I can't see enough of the mom to know if she's a charlie or not.

 

[ladysown]

Is a Charlie rabbit a rabbit with 10% or less colors or a rabbit with two copies of the broken gene?

10% or less colour.

 

[Cosima]

10% or less colour.

ok thanks

 

[Alaska Satin]

10% or less colour.

Technically (genetically) a charlie is a rabbit who carries two broken genes; otherwise, it's just a very lightly marked broken (some call it a false charlie). On the judging table, without any pedigree information, it is the custom to call all extremely lightly-marked brokens "charlies," but it's really a misnomer.
It matters because breeders appreciate a notation on a pedigree if the rabbit is a charlie. First, it guarantees all broken litters. And it strongly cautions against breeding the rabbit to another broken, because of the second reason: rabbits carrying two copies of the broken gene have a markedly increased tendency to suffer from megacolon.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I think the question is a bit confused. For a rabbit to be shown as a broken (a colored coat broken up by white patches), it needs to have a certain amount of color. For angoras, the minimum is 10% color/90% white, with a maximum of 75% color/30% white. For Holland Lops, the maximum amount of color is 70%, I didn't see a minimum. Broken Rex are 10-50% color. It would be very subjective when you got down to Charlie status as to whether a coat is 9% or 11% color. Tris are a subset of brokens, and aren't showable in many breeds, so this isn't so much a showing issue. Generally, for a broken to be showable, your breed has to have sanctioned brokens as an acceptable pattern, AND the base color has to be an accepted color as well. Some, like Holland Lops, have accepted tri, even though harlequin is not accepted.

I think the difficulty is in determining what makes a Charlie. Technically, it is simply a nickname given to rabbits with two broken EnEn genes (the En is code for 'English spotting', as the English Spot breed's spots come from this gene.) Since they aren't born with a genetic flag that says 'Look at me! I'm a genetic Charlie!', we need to look for clues. The first clue that you can see is the minimal spotting. But that's only a clue. It doesn't make them a Charlie. The 100% broken kits when bred to a solid is the best sign that the parent has only dominant broken genetics.

By definition, Charlies lack much color in their broken coat. It's the first clue. So, you can't have too much white/too little color to be a Charlie. You may well not have enough color to be a showable broken, that's a different issue. The Charlie issue is talking genetics, which we call genotype--En En Charlie vs. the normal broken En en (en en is a normal solid color rabbit, double recessive). The 'not enough color' issue is talking show/registration status based on appearace, called phenotype. Charlies simply lack much color, the real proof of being a Charlie is in the inability to throw any other offspring than brokens when mated to a solid.

Last year the ARBA changed the standards for all breeds regarding the broken coloration. Now it just says the rabbit, whatever the breed, can't be a booted or a charlie. It seems pretty subjective, but then so is estimating 10%, 50% or 70% of the usable pelt!

 

[Cosima]

Basically everyone has a different opinion of what Charlie and false Charlie means, right?

 

[Cosima]

Alaska satin@ in your opinion is the blue false Charlie/ Charlie (Quarts) above a false or true Charlie?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Alaska satin@ in your opinion is the blue false Charlie/ Charlie (Quarts) above a false or true Charlie?

On a show table, since the ARBA rule change, it would be disqualified as a "charlie," since the judge can only see the rabbit and not its genes.

However, I would call it a false charlie, meaning it looks like a charlie but is not one genetically. Although it is a very lightly marked broken, if the rabbit had a solid parent, as long as the parent was not REW or BEW which can hide broken, the rabbit can't be a "real" (genetic) charlie, because it can only have a single copy of the broken gene <En>.

Previously in this thread, @judymac described the situation very well:
I think the difficulty is in determining what makes a Charlie. Technically, it is simply a nickname given to rabbits with two broken EnEn genes (the En is code for 'English spotting', as the English Spot breed's spots come from this gene.) Since they aren't born with a genetic flag that says 'Look at me! I'm a genetic Charlie!', we need to look for clues. The first clue that you can see is the minimal spotting. But that's only a clue. It doesn't make them a Charlie. The 100% broken kits when bred to a solid is the best sign that the parent has only dominant broken genetics.

By definition, Charlies lack much color in their broken coat. It's the first clue. So, you can't have too much white/too little color to be a Charlie. You may well not have enough color to be a showable broken, that's a different issue. The Charlie issue is talking genetics, which we call genotype--En En Charlie vs. the normal broken En en (en en is a normal solid color rabbit, double recessive). The 'not enough color' issue is talking show/registration status based on appearace, called phenotype. Charlies simply lack much color, the real proof of being a Charlie is in the inability to throw any other offspring than brokens when mated to a solid.

Some broken lines can produce very lightly marked brokens and if the parent of your rabbit is lightly broken, that might explain it. The Satin buck pictured below isn't as lightly-marked as yours, but he was disqualified by one judge for being a charlie. He was genetically a lightly-marked broken, <Enen>, but of course the judge couldn't tell what his genetics looked like:


His parents were these rabbits:


One interesting thing is that the Blanc de Hotot and Dwarf Hotot breeds are not only charlies <EnEn>, but they also have Dutch genes, which eliminate color on some parts of a rabbit where charlies usually have color, especially the nose. One of the disqualifications often seen in Hotots are small spots on the ears, like you bunny has. Could your bunny have dutch in its background? Or perhaps even one of the Hotots? Hotots are charlies, but derive from broken lines that are very lightly marked.

 

[Cosima]

some of my kits look like miss marked dutch even though i don’t have a Dutch rabbit but it is a possibility.

 

[Alaska Satin]

some of my kits look like miss marked dutch even though i don’t have a Dutch rabbit but it is a possibility.

Ah, yes! If you got the lightly-marked broken together with the dutch you could certainly get some extremely lightly-marked brokens!

 

[Sapphire16]

Her pedigree only says broken castor, but I’ve been skeptical of that since getting her. And unfortunately, I have no way to contact her breeder now. Her markings don’t seem very castor like to me but I definitely could be wrong!

The castor colors are there and she definitely looks like she hasthe tri ej gene. I have a probably charlie in a current litter out of two broken castors, one of which is a harlequinized castor. Mate with another carrying the ej gene like a solid harlequin and you will have tri. Bred to a castor again, some of the kits will probably carry tri.