Info about Pan American Vet Labs' Vaccine for Pasteurella

[TMTex]

I am able to open them just fine in Open Office.

The "BunnyVac Information" opened up with two pages, though the second is blank. It appears that everything is on the first page, though, and that the second page was added just as an error in translation from .docx to .odt.

Same thing here with MS Office. It might be a page formatting thing, but it doesn't affect the information.

 

[annie]

I am interested too, hopefully there is a way to lower the shipping cost or get several of us together to combine our orders.

 

[Frecs]

... We have had many more reports of infected/symptomatic animals whose symptoms have diminished or resolved after vaccination. We have not done any studies to determine the effect (good or bad) on infected animals.
...

It is my belief that this vaccine can be a useful tool in combating Pasteurella infection, but each breeder/producer should do his own research and decide if this is a tool that will provide benefit in their operation. I am available to answer questions.

I wanted to remark on the two statements quoted above.

Vaccines are not intended to *treat infected animal/human*. Vaccines are to *prevent* infection. I've heard of an number of breeders using this vaccine as a "cure" for already sick animals. This is a major problem, in my estimation, as then animals will be sold or taken to shows because "they are symptom free=cured=vaccinated" and other animals are going to get sick.

The other issue to my thinking is that there is not *yet* any evidence that the vaccine is actually killing the latent bacteria in a vaccinated rabbit. Thus, a vaccinated rabbit could still be a carrier able to infect others.

Sorry, at this point, I don't intend to vaccinate nor do I want my rabbits exposed to rabbits that have been. I understand this is a "dead bacteria vaccine" but I'm not convince it is effective in preventing a rabbit from being a carrier.

Would Dr. Glass like to address these concerns?

 

[OneAcreFarm]

... We have had many more reports of infected/symptomatic animals whose symptoms have diminished or resolved after vaccination. We have not done any studies to determine the effect (good or bad) on infected animals.
...

It is my belief that this vaccine can be a useful tool in combating Pasteurella infection, but each breeder/producer should do his own research and decide if this is a tool that will provide benefit in their operation. I am available to answer questions.

I wanted to remark on the two statements quoted above.

Vaccines are not intended to *treat infected animal/human*. Vaccines are to *prevent* infection. I've heard of an number of breeders using this vaccine as a "cure" for already sick animals. This is a major problem, in my estimation, as then animals will be sold or taken to shows because "they are symptom free=cured=vaccinated" and other animals are going to get sick.

The other issue to my thinking is that there is not *yet* any evidence that the vaccine is actually killing the latent bacteria in a vaccinated rabbit. Thus, a vaccinated rabbit could still be a carrier able to infect others.

Sorry, at this point, I don't intend to vaccinate nor do I want my rabbits exposed to rabbits that have been. I understand this is a "dead bacteria vaccine" but I'm not convince it is effective in preventing a rabbit from being a carrier.

Would Dr. Glass like to address these concerns?

I have the same concerns as Tina and would be interested in hearing Dr. Glass's response.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I have not yet read the studies, so forgive me if this was addressed.

I have the same concerns as those stated above.

Given the fact that antibiotic therapy does not effect a cure due to limited blood flow to the sinuses, would not the same apply to the antibodies in the circulatory system? If they can't reach the sinuses and the resident bacteria, wont the animal always be carrying a possibly infective load of Pasteurella, though the rabbit itself is asymptomatic?

 

[Miss M]

Okay, y'all, I merged the two remaining vaccine threads into this one. I was hoping for a little more control over the result, but here it is. It's messy, but I'll be going through it to try to bring some order to it.

We really wanted all the discussion on the vaccine in one thread, because it will be easiest for Bob Glass to find the questions to answer if they are not spread out over a bunch of threads.

If anything you posted in one of the vaccine threads has disappeared, you have my sincere apologies. Please feel free to post it again. I think I have all the posts here, though.

 

[Cottie]

I have not yet read the studies, so forgive me if this was addressed.

I have the same concerns as those stated above.

Given the fact that antibiotic therapy does not effect a cure due to limited blood flow to the sinuses, would not the same apply to the antibodies in the circulatory system? If they can't reach the sinuses and the resident bacteria, wont the animal always be carrying a possibly infective load of Pasteurella, though the rabbit itself is asymptomatic?

Good question!

I have to ask (I don't know enough about immunology in general, let alone in rabbits), would P be able to sufficiently colonize in the sinuses to cause a problematic infection? If the vaccine empowers the immune system, and it passes from the sinuses to the general bloodstream, wouldn't it then be fought off - removing the concern of transference via parasites?

If the animal is truly asymptomatic, the P wouldn't become airborne via sneezing/coughing, so the only outlet would be other bodily fluids?

Not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply curious on how the disease is transmitted/how the vaccine prevents transference from colonized sinuses as you asked.

 

[TMTex]

Just an update as requested.

One of my lactating Cali does was sneezing, most likely due to heat stress. I vaccinated her on June 20 and gave her 0.5cc oxytetracyline per day subcutaneously for 7 days. There was never any discharge. She sneezes every now and then, but they're still dry sneezes. A knot is forming at the vaccine injection site. Massaging the knot daily doesn't seem to have any effect. Otherwise, she seems fine.

I vaccinated our indoor pet rabbit (mutt) and a newly acquired Flemish Giant today (Saturday, June 29).

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I have not yet read the studies, so forgive me if this was addressed.

I have the same concerns as those stated above.

Given the fact that antibiotic therapy does not effect a cure due to limited blood flow to the sinuses, would not the same apply to the antibodies in the circulatory system? If they can't reach the sinuses and the resident bacteria, wont the animal always be carrying a possibly infective load of Pasteurella, though the rabbit itself is asymptomatic?

Good question!

I have to ask (I don't know enough about immunology in general, let alone in rabbits), would P be able to sufficiently colonize in the sinuses to cause a problematic infection? If the vaccine empowers the immune system, and it passes from the sinuses to the general bloodstream, wouldn't it then be fought off - removing the concern of transference via parasites?

If the animal is truly asymptomatic, the P wouldn't become airborne via sneezing/coughing, so the only outlet would be other bodily fluids?

Not trying to be argumentative. I'm simply curious on how the disease is transmitted/how the vaccine prevents transference from colonized sinuses as you asked.

P typically DOES colonize the nasal passages and sinus cavities, which is why antibiotics don't every fully get rid of the infection in rabbits, since rabbits have very little blood flow that reaches the sinus cavities. P is not airborne, it is spread by "droplet", which is why even a few feet or a barrier can make a difference in whether an animal gets infected by neighbor or not. If a rabbit already has an infection, that vaccine is not likely going to get rid of it. It may lessen the symptoms, just like antibiotics, but vaccines are not meant for treatment, they are meant as a preventative. You don't see them giving flu vaccine to people with the flu. In fact, they make you wait till you are well before you can get it.

 

[TMTex]

Another update...I vaccinated a newly acquired 8 week old Californian buck. The others are free of any symptoms. The doe who was sneezing has stopped.

<edit> The knot on the first doe's injection site has grown to about the size of half a small grape. </edit>

 

[DonnerSurvivor]

Kinda off topic but since this is somewhat near the top anyways does anyone know if panlabs is open on saturday or sunday for taking orders? Or does anyone know their regular business hours?

 

[Frecs]

The echo of silence from the good Dr. is deafening....

 

[LauraNJ]

The echo of silence from the good Dr. is deafening....

I'd expect that they got a hold of him already. He has mentioned that the calls go directly to his cell that he always has with him.

I can't think of any other Dr that develops a vaccine and then answers questions on various forums or has calls go to their cell phone or to their email that they themself answer? I think that is pretty awesome.

 

[Frecs]

I suppose. But he didn't answer any questions on the forum...he certainly didn't answer mine....all he appears to be doing is giving his sells pitch.

 

[Miss M]

Well... until he returns, perhaps this could serve as a place to discuss his documentation.

 

[TMTex]

A little update. The knot at the injection site is no longer there on the doe who had it. So that looks like week 3 after the injection and it has resolved itself. I bred her this evening.

The others haven't developed any knots.

 

[Justintime]

I am still skeptical of this vaccine.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I am still skeptical of this vaccine.

I guess time will tell, but I would rather wait and hear what it has to say....

 

[Frecs]

I'm very skeptical and very concerned that it is being used as a "cure" rather than a preventative.

 

[LauraNJ]

I'm very skeptical and very concerned that it is being used as a "cure" rather than a preventative.

From what I have seen and read, everyone is using it as a preventative at this point. A few breeders tried it out on ones who had white snot that were quarantined to see what it would do. Some had initial good responses but then the snot reappeared or got worse and those were culled.

The vaccine has shown a couple breeders carriers that they thought were healthy and just had natural resistance to P.

Everyone assumes that if you have P go through your herd and a few never come down with it that they are the strong ones, the ones that have a natural immunity to it.

Instead some breeders that have dealt with P in the past have found out that they had carriers. Makes you wonder if that is why, after culling for it the past 100 yrs, we are still dealing with it on a very regular basis.