how can a rabbit out of pedigreed rabbits not be....

[ladysown]

what the parents are?

Situation:

I sold a rabbit as a baby.
The fellow who owned him then sold him to a person who chose to show him. he was not sold as a show rabbit, but as a rabbit by a person who wanted to own that particular breed of rabbit NOW.

At the show he gets told his rabbit isn't what he's told it is.

But I KNOW this rabbit.
I KNOW it's parents.

and apparently the other rabbit that he brought to show...which I've shown in the past, and was told was unbalanced, and therefore sold her as not showable as I was told I didn't want to breed that into my lines... well apparently she's not the given breed either.

So how can it not be the breed it's parents are?

This all makes me wonder.. well... if they have registered and shown successfully parentage as this certain breed in the background... then how can their offspring not be the same breed?

does this mean that pedigrees are totally worthless?
does this mean that somewhere someone lied?
OR does it just mean that somehow genetics of the past have crept up and produced something odd????

This has made me feel quite shaken inside and taken advantage of... and understanding why someone would be annoyed acting with me about rabbits with my prefix. These two were some of the first of that type of rabbit that I bred and the first to gain my prefix.

 

[RunninMI]

well it could mean someone lied and maybe not even lied but used something else to improve the breed at some time and now its passing through
It could also be a couple flukes you have to realize a rabbits ancestory can only be traced back so far and before ancesatory was traced who knows what may have been bred in
also it could possibly be judges or it could be what this person is sayin jus cause they are not happy they are not winning. I wouldnt take it to much to heart wether its genetics or judges or just angry people I would not let it bother you if you sold them as "pets" or non show animals I would jus say yes thats why the rabbits werent sold as ahow stock.

 

[Honorine]

Ladysown what breed are these? And on what points did this judge state these weren't purebred? There's so many different things that can come up depending on the breed, it would help to know what was said. I can comment more with more info. But first and foremost, a judges opinion is just an opinion, and their not always right, or know everything about every breed, trust me on this one. I love when as soon as my son puts his Silvers on the table they pull out the standard, only a few old timers haven't done so, but a lot of the younger judges have no idea what a Silver is supposed to look like. They also could have judged your rabbit based on color, perhaps it was a non accepted color.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Any breed going onto the table MUST meet that breed's standard. This includes not only type but colour weight etc. It doesn't matter from whence this rabbit came from; it itself must be within the parameters of the SOP. And funnily enough I don't buy into this thing where we say so and so judge doesn't know anything about a certain breed, Judges must pass a written exam as well as apprentice many hours and many shows with many different breeds... I have more respect for the judge who consults his SOP when judging, it shows they are keeping up with sop changes and refreshing their mind on the breed on the table before them. Judges in general know when type is good no matter what breed and I think poor/bad condition/ open/moulting coat pretty much appear the same in all breeds of rabbits.

Aside from all this, from what I understand you sold the rabbit as a baby and most people don't sell a kit on it's future abilities just what it appears as at time of sale. The other rabbit was sold as "UNSHOWABLE" to begin with, so I think that came under buyer's choice to buy/show. I also think the rabbits were probably labeled as "not meeting breed standard" or "unworthy of a place" not that they were the wrong breed on the table!

 

[Honorine]

Lauren I wish our judges down here were as good as your sound to be, I've seen so many mistakes and just outright ignorance here. Have a friend who has Blanc de Hotots, her best buck who has awesome type has taken best of breed under a number of judges. She always waits until after the breed is judged to educate the Judge on her breed, because the rabbit he just placed as best of breed should have been DQ'd, as half of one of his eyes is blue. This occurred at Convention as well, rabbit took his class until the irate exhibitor who had the second place rabbit pitched a fit. Funny thing was that the second place rabbit also had a DQ, its eye bands were too wide, and it would have gotten the bounce if the Judge had measured them. And don't even get me started on Mini Rex judges who can't tell a true genetic Lynx from a Fawn, and who put the Fawn up everytime. I can go on and on, the judges who set up rabbits incorrectly, and then those breed for a certain type and will ignore a very correct rabbit over something that looks like what they themselves may have produced. That particular judge is very high up in ARBA, I won't bother paying the entry if he's judging, because our rabbits aren't his 'type'. But their just human, some know more than others, and some are content with sticking to breeds that they know well.

 

[ladysown]

AT this point I"m not confortable giving out the breed information. The rabbit world is fairly small here in Ontario and I don't want negativity to affect life overall.

I don't feel particularly bad for the individual who bought the rabbits as that individual didn't really do the homework needed....either that or thought to theirself... I have pets! Now...ooh...there's a show, let's take them. And was in too much of a hurry to get the rabbits.

Ended up getting a good deal out of it as fellow breeders helped out and traded very good rabbits for less than stellar quality rabbits. So it worked out well for the individual involved...but left the feeling that others think that "I" sold less than stellar rabbits to the person involved when I'm not the person who sold them, just the person who bred them.

It's all been a bit of a shocker overall... but I'm getting past it a bit...

 

[LilFish_JWQueen(:]

well its kinda like the wool gene...you can get a fuzzy lop from two purebred hollands because somewhere way back somehow the parents got that wool gene...same with netherlands and jerseys.
Or somewhere someone forgot to mention oh theres this back in the third generation.
Or someone was just dishonest.
Or it just popped up to be a fluke is what ya call it. like a mutation.
You will proly never know unless you went back to original breeders and they might not even know.
It is kinda sad cause it makes you look dishonest when you sold that rabbit but id just go to the person you sold it to and say look i didnt know about this or i woulda told you and maybe offer them a deal or something or other.

 

[arachyd]

The rabbits could have gotten mixed up with other rabbits or they may actually be very good examples of the breed and the person was misinformed for some reason. It's also possible they were kept poorly which would definitely affect how they look grown up (not uneard-of when someone wants a rabbit NOW). I would make an attempt to contact the person who has the rabbits and see for myself. Either way you'll be able to settle your mind about it. If they turn out to be your rabbits and bad examples of the breed you will know it's in your lines and can refine your line of rabbits accordingly.

 

[Honorine]

I understand, I too would be upset with a situation that reflected badly on me, even though its clearly not your fault, the rabbits weren't sold as show stock. While rabbits are very plastic genetically they can also carry recessives for many generations. Case in point, back in the thirties someone wanted to create a Rex furred Flemish. Didn't go anywhere but rex furred kits have popped up in Flemish litters decades later. REW the same thing, and in NZ's sometimes an occasional Angora will show up. Whatever it is it can be many generations back and still rear its head. So yes, something could show up in the litter of two purebred parents that didn't look like whatever the breed was, because after 3-4 gens its considered purebred again. 1st gen- 50%, 2nd gen 75%, 3rd 87%, 4th pretty much purebred. I'm bummed for you but hold your chin up, it can happen to anyone. I know I've told this story before but someone I know bought a pair of Silvers from a Judge. Bred them together and got REW's in the litter, nearly had a cardiac. I know that this judge had to know it was in his herd, may have crossed it in himself. Not the first time I'd heard hinky things about him. But thats my pet peeve, REW in a breed where it doesn't belong.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I bought my Great Dane bitch (now deceased) from a breeder who had been showing and breeding for about 25 years at the time. She told me she'd had some pretty strange colors pop up occasionally- one time she had a pup that could only be described as "pink"! She explained that these things happen because genetic info doesn't just disappear- it may be generation upon generation back, but breed 2 dogs together and if they both carry that gene it can pop up again. And this in dogs, where crossing other breeds into a "purebred" line to improve an aspect is not commonly done once a breed is established.

 

[rabbitgeek]

Stick to your guns, these were not sold as showbunnies.

As for the judges. One judge on one day should not be the last word. I've had rabbits disqualified at a show in the morning and win Best Of Breed in the afternoon. And vice versa.

And since your rabbit community is so small, try to sell only showable bunnies. Even if somebody wants a pet, they get a showbunny with a tattoo and a pedigree. We've sold showbunnies with pedigrees to people who wanted pets. They thought it was kind of cool to get a pedigree with their pet. We did sell a few without pedigrees, but mostly we sold with pedigree and did not charge extra for pedigrees.

Pedigree is our documentation assuring the buyer that they are receiving a purebred rabbit. The tattoo links the rabbit to the pedigree.

ETA: Some pet buyers thought it was cute that the rabbit came with a "tat"

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Have a good day!

 

[akane]

Rabbits aren't like animals with stricter registration. You can only register a horse if it's out of 2 of the same or acceptable group of breeds and no one cares if you maintain your own pedigree on them without registering unless it's a rare breed with no good registry. A horse is only a given breed if it's parent were registered to be and it often can look like anything and still be registered. Prior to the white marking limit rules a quarter horse out of quarter horses could be registered no matter what it looked like. AQHA since decided to restrict the white on a quarter horse so horses with too much white are now registered with APHA (paint horse) which allows all quarter horse and thoroughbred with enough white and all horses even without white that have parents registered APHA.

Rabbits though are what breed they look like since there is not a closed registry for any breed unlike horses and dogs. If the rabbit doesn't meet standard or certain type and markings it is no longer that breed. Kind of like my creme d'argent who throws black. The new zealand is one generation off her pedigree and she looks like a creme so she is a creme. Her offspring though are not cremes since the color is a requirement of the breed and I have several blacks and chestnuts. However the blacks could actually be considered champagne d'argent although they would have a bit of an uncommon look for the area making anyone experienced recognize they had been crossed. That's a very simplistic example but type and other things could create the same problem.

On the other hand though pedigrees are still important for keeping track of various lines and you can't register a rabbit to go for GC without the proper information for so many of it's ancestors along with meeting the standard. Most people won't buy show rabbits without a pedigree so they know nothing has been crossed in recently, what color the parents were, preferably what weights they made, and sometimes what legs and GC they've won along with many lines being easy to track back through the various breeders by the names on the pedigree. Even my meat rabbits though I keep pedigrees on and sometimes I send simplified pet pedigrees with the ones I sell. People liek to see the pedigree of their aniamls and it's important to keep track of everything you are breeding to make decisions on what to breed in the future. When I've bought unpedigreed meat rabbits I asked who the parents were so I at least had one generation recorded.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Perhaps the people who bought them got confused and thought they were another breed, & sold or showed them as such, and that is why they are being told they aren't the right breed? Just a thought.

Emily