History behind name reversal of Argentes?

[WallTenter]

Perhaps people were running around saying "I ain't gonna call it just a French rabbit, I'll call it a French Silver, howda say that in fancy French? Ah yes Argent duh Shampain.".... Not everyone in England, Europe or even France spoke (speaks) proper French. Just as most of us never learn to speak proper English

 

[trinityoaks]

Saw this somewhere once--English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammer.

English--the Borg of languages. :lol:

 

[3mina]

Saw this somewhere once--English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammer.

English--the Borg of languages. :lol:

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

English--the Borg of languages. :lol:

Trinityoaks, you just made me laugh really loud. And now everyone in the coffee shop is staring at me. LOL, I blame you.

No seriously though, that was the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I want that saying as a bumper sticker or a t-shirt or something. IT'S ONLY FUNNY BECAUSE IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!!!!

I lol'd.

 

[skysthelimit]

LOL, so true!

 

[dragonladyleanne]

Well it isn't THE answer, but I finally got a response from Nikki White, the Australian woman who wrote the excellent article about the history of the Argente de Champagne, and it does at least let me know the name change DID occur in the US (and I guess Canada, since someone on here said they called it Champagne d'Argent in Canada as well)! Here is her reply,

"We no longer have the Argente de Champagne in this country but when we did,
they were called just that, Argente de Champagne. What we had were imports
from Britain from a time (in the late 90s) when we could import rabbits from
either Britain or New Zealand. As we follow the British Rabbit Council
standards so we use the name they are called in Britain.

You are quite right, the inversion you mention makes no sense. I've just
looked up Bob Whitman (since he is an American and would likely have that
information) and seen the confusion. Heaven knows why that happened. Argente
means silvery or silvered. Champagne is a region of France, so Silvered
(rabbit) of Champagne,

We do have Argente cavies and they are always just called Argente.

Cheerio

Nikki"

Soooo, I think I will have to find someone who was actually raising the breed when the name change occurred here, since the breed association's website said "please send us pix and stories so we can write our history" . . .! I might email their director anyway, in case someone DID send them something, but it's a long shot! Oh yeah, and "English, the Borg of Languages" strikes me as a good bumper sticker, too!

 

[Honorine]

Scadian here, and Silvers are much more better and far more ancient than any silly old french rabbit- and quite tasty even if smaller. Poo, only 400 years old---

 

[dragonladyleanne]

I think I found it - and on a medical website, of all things! http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio ... gent%c3%a9

"Argenté
large, silver-colored, fur rabbits, in several color varieties with different tonings in the fur. Champagne is the largest, with a dark, slate blue coat; Bleu is lavender blue; Brun, silvered-brown; and Creme, silvered yellow."

SOMEbody thought it meant the COLOR "champagne" . . . In reality, they are ALL Champagnes, as the original was from that area of France, and they are all descendants. Oh, and Honorine, the DOCUMENTATION is 400 years old, I am sure the French monks were breeding them before anyone wrote about it (I have seen some sites say as early as 1400). And it's the same breed, their name just got translated in the 1920's to "French Silver". But hey, the spottiness of the documentation is why I am making an A&S project from this - I started out just wanting to raise rabbits for Feast, LOL!

 

[Honorine]

No the French Argents and Silvers are not the same breed, Silvers were used to give the French Argents their silvering but they are absolutely not the same. Silvers originated from Siam, and were brought into Europe and spread, often by monks, as newborn rabbit kits were considered to be 'fish' by the church and a delicacy. One of the reasons why most monasteries had a rabbit warren. The french took them, selectively bred them for size and heavy silvering, and added colors, while in other countries they remained only one color, black, were small and looked like a wild rabbit and had a very short snap back coat. Not the same, a shared history but completely different. Silvers are far older, and still look like they did centuries ago. Champagne de Argents have been mixed with so many other breeds to improve meat and conformation that if you stripped off the silvering many of them would just look like black New Zealands. Are you well versed in color genetics? Do you understand how silvering is inherited and how it works? Its a dominant, sometimes random, I can take a mutt rabbit and create decently silvered animals in 2 generations, in fact I've done it. Silvered reds are awfully pretty, they look kinda pink. Your argueing over a name twist and historical provenence when the rabbits themselves are completely modern creations. Yes, even Silvers have been diluted but not to the extent that the Argent breeds have been. You know I just reread what you wrote, and I think there's a misunderstanding, and your not familiar with Silvers, just the Argent breeds, perhaps because their meat breeds- these are Silvers-

http://www.silverrabbitclub.com/

See, smaller, completely different, the original silvered rabbit. Fawn and brown were added late on, weight is 4 to 7 lbs, the blacks are the original Silver grays. I should have been more clear in what I meant. And if your going to get huffy anyway I am a Herald and I will yell at you.

 

[tailwagging]

But but but Honorine I love my silly old french rabbits :cry_baby:
Pink you say?! mmmmMMmmmmMmmm

 

[Honorine]

All the girlies want a pink bunny, I could make a mint!!! Hey TW sent you a PM, wanted you to see a picture-

 

[dragonladyleanne]

No the French Argents and Silvers are not the same breed, Silvers were used to give the French Argents their silvering but they are absolutely not the same. Silvers originated from Siam, and were brought into Europe and spread, often by monks, as newborn rabbit kits were considered to be 'fish' by the church and a delicacy. One of the reasons why most monasteries had a rabbit warren. The french took them, selectively bred them for size and heavy silvering, and added colors, while in other countries they remained only one color, black, were small and looked like a wild rabbit and had a very short snap back coat. Not the same, a shared history but completely different. Silvers are far older, and still look like they did centuries ago. Champagne de Argents have been mixed with so many other breeds to improve meat and conformation that if you stripped off the silvering many of them would just look like black New Zealands. Are you well versed in color genetics? Do you understand how silvering is inherited and how it works? Its a dominant, sometimes random, I can take a mutt rabbit and create decently silvered animals in 2 generations, in fact I've done it. Silvered reds are awfully pretty, they look kinda pink. Your argueing over a name twist and historical provenence when the rabbits themselves are completely modern creations. Yes, even Silvers have been diluted but not to the extent that the Argent breeds have been. You know I just reread what you wrote, and I think there's a misunderstanding, and your not familiar with Silvers, just the Argent breeds, perhaps because their meat breeds- these are Silvers-

http://www.silverrabbitclub.com/

See, smaller, completely different, the original silvered rabbit. Fawn and brown were added late on, weight is 4 to 7 lbs, the blacks are the original Silver grays. I should have been more clear in what I meant. And if your going to get huffy anyway I am a Herald and I will yell at you.

I did not mean to sound huffy (though I probably did go into "teacher mode". 3rd generation thing), but you are the first person to mention another "Silver" breed, and in your first post you didn't make it clear it WAS another breed, so I assumed you were being flippant (or perhaps in persona) and saying the Argent was not French, but English. I have only been into rabbits since June, and investigating the name change because I am very interested in etymology, and the living changing nature of language. It may seem a silly pursuit to some, but language is the means whereby we learn everything we cannot directly experience, so it is very important to me.

Yell at me? Heralds don't yell, they project!

I did notice that website only listed one reference, "Domestic Rabbits and their Histories" by Bob Whitman, for the Siam origins; do you have others? It happens I am going to the library tonight, I'd love to be able to get reference material on both breeds. I am marginally literate in French even, so it's ok if the references aren't translated (though Old French might take me a while)! I hope I can find at least that one. Also a tract from Australia that a breeder was kind enough to point me towards . . . yes, yes, I am a Nerd!

 

[Honorine]

Sorry took so long, last fair day cleanup was this weekend, and have been scrambling to get things done that were left sit for the last three weeks while fair was on. 'Fair' is a four letter word you know- oy me back. Sorry about the mix-up, totally didn't occur to me that you thought I was only referencing the Argent breeds, not until the last minute. I did have additional online reference materials addressing the origins and age of Silvers but most of the sites are gone, Bob Whitman is the only lasting info that is cited the most, although years ago when I first researched Silvers there was more. I can't steer your towards books because I don't 'do' books anymore, I'm lucky if I find time to read the latest Wheel of Time novel, pity really, I used to be a bookworm. What I do know is that Silvers are the first genetic color mutation that was taken and propagated on purpose, and they originated in Siam. They were brought to Portugal, where Sir Walter Raleigh transported them to England. They then spread thru Europe, from England and Portugal, and the French took the silvering gene and created their Argent breeds. It has been inferred that Silvers have been known of for in the area of 800 years, I know you want hard historical written facts, but there's not a lot out there, and most is conjecture, none of it is concrete. There are a number of breeds that are silvered, some lightly some heavily like Argents for instance, and in Argents all the colors are considered different breeds, here in the US the breeds reconized are Champagnes and Cremes. There are also Bruns, reconized by the Canadian Club and Devon is the only person in North America that I know of who has them. Then there's Silver Fox, more lightly Silvered, an American breed, larger, good dress out, Black is reconized, Blue is being worked on as it was once reconized and was dropped, and there's a COD out on Chocolates. Then there's Silvers of course, in Fawn, which is actually orange, black and brown, brown is chestnut agouti. Silvering is actually allowed in some of the Lop breeds, there was a Silvered Mini Lop at the fair this year, and I believe that English and French Lops also reconize Silvered animals. In Europe there are a number of silvered or Champagne colors in other breeds, like Netherland Dwarves, and a few breeds that we do not have here. This is a neat page-

http://www.zilverclub.nl/championshow2011.html

I think their supposed to be Silvers, but they look different than ours do here. I realize I wasn't able to point you in the direction of the historical references that you wanted, so I tried to give you more information about the Silvered breeds in general, hope that helps.

http://www.rarebreeds.co.nz/enderbyrabbit.html

http://nsfrc.com/index.php

http://www.freewebs.com/riverwindrabbit ... abbits.htm

If I find more I'll be sure to post it, now I have to go empty pans, such a lovely day to fling poo!!

 

[Piper]

This looks like it might be applicable
http://www.nationalsilverrabbitclub.co.uk/?q=node/102

 

[dragonladyleanne]

Thank you both, Honorine and Piper. I had visited the Silver Fox website before, but neglected to copy it, as at the time I was just looking up that breed to see if I wanted to "settle" for mixed Argent/SF at a lesser price than pure Argents. Since that site said they most likely were developed FROM Argents, partly, I decided to do so. I originally was just going to raise rabbits for SCA feasts and possible fur sales, with no breed in mind (which is why I have 4 "unknown" breed rabbits in my starter herd), but saw this ad for "medieval meat rabbits", and when trying to find out more about them, discovered the name discrepancy. I notice the New Zealand site calls them as the Australian breeder told me, Argents de Champagne. She also said she "looked up" Bob Whitman (not sure if she meant spoke with, or simply researched who he was, but implied she knew him or of him, and I'd not heard of him at the time), and was unable to answer the WHY of the name change. Just that it happened after 1920, and only in North America. I know that is hardly "history" to some people (certainly not SCAdian period), and I'm sorry if I have given some folks the impression I wanted older documents. And I certainly won't turn down medieval documents on rabbitry, it's just not what this thread was about. I'll be a little more precise in my subject headings in the future.

I do find the genetics intriguing, but I also am aware that finding reliable written sources from the middle ages is nearly impossible, since even the "controlled breedings" were something of a guess, sometimes kept secret to control the market, and even out and out lies (something "foreign" being more attractive than "local")told for the same end. Also, there's always "sports" (I have a cat whose mother was Siamese, but he fits the breed standard and was vet labeled as Balinese), HOWEVER!! Knowing about the genetics NOW, can help me ensure I breed more efficiently for the Argent "look", rather than taking a lifetime of experiment (I am not a French monk!), so I appreciate that info! Pink bunnies? If you can get that breeding true, I bet there's a huge market!

 

[Piper]

the silver d'Argent, Champagne d'Argent, Argent of Champagne - would all be descriptive, since it refers to the Silver color phase, of the Argent rabbit, that was developed in Champagne, France. Silver Fox, is a completely different breed.
----------
- http://www.raising-rabbits.com/champagne-dargent.html
there is also the Crème d’Argent, and several other colors
Other UK Argente Breeds:
Argente Bleu, Argente Brun, Argente Noir, Argente St. Hubert, [Argente Crème called the Crème d’Argent in the USA], so
"Champagnes d'Argent", would refer to the "Silver" version, developed in Champagne, France

"Argente' de Champagne" meaning "Silver (rabbit) of Champagne"

- The name change seems to be, because there is a Silver rabbit, which the French call "Riche".
http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/silver.html
- http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/cremedargent.html
The Crème d’Argent is a rabbit breed that was developed in France during the mid-to-late 1800’s. It is not clear how the Crème d’Argent was initially created, most likely the Champagne d’Argent, oldest of the seven Argent rabbit breeds, played a part. The first mention of the Crème d’Argent appeared in a written piece in the Live Stock Journal describing the Jardin d’Acclimatation rabbit exhibition held near Paris in 1877.
http://www.raising-rabbits.com/champagne-dargent.html
Champagnes first arrived in the USA in 1912 under the name of Champagne or French Silver. The Champagne d’Argent Rabbit Federation formed in 1932.
http://www.raising-rabbits.com/champagne-dargent.html
In the UK, the breed is known as Argente Champagne.
Belgian Silvers
The French like their Argente Champagnes fifty-fifty, or moderately silvered, while breeders in Belgium prefer heavily silvered champagne dargent rabbits. In fact, they could not compete fairly in European shows due to the fact that their Argente Champagnes didn't correctly match the official French standard.

But no problem. They renamed their rabbits Belgian Silvers, and wrote a new standard for the "new" breed.

Go to this Champagne d'Argent Facebook page for some additional great pictures of Champagne d'Argents.

The silver is known, in France as "Riche", they are a different breed from the Argents. The Argents are a "new" breed.
http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffr ... eders-fair
Silvery rabbits, you ask? The Silver, as it is officially known, is a breed of rabbit that came from France in the late 19th century which, guidebooks will tell you, was called the "Riche". The Modern Silver has a short glossy coat and comes not just in grey but also in brown. Marie and Pavel Turin should know: they've been raising the animals for 18 years. I couldn't resist asking 'why'. Mrs Turin explained it was nothing less than a passion.

1749 reference
http://www.heatons-of-tisbury.co.uk/animals14.html
Le Riche, Le lapin de Russie, L'Ogototn, Le Lievre des Alpes
Rabbit etc
By Count de Buffon (Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon) (7 September 1707 – 16 April 1788) a French naturalist, mathematician, cosmologist,& prolific author. Copper engraving . from 20 volumes of Histoire Naturelle, Page size is approx. 8.1/4 x 5.1/4" (210 130mm). First published in intervals over an eighteen-year period, from 1749 to 1767. These bordered image pics are from the 1749/50's editions. £15 ea unmounted

 

[dragonladyleanne]

Wowsers, those will keep me busy for a while! It's beginning to look like the name changed simply because nothing was firmly standardized, and even where it WAS, if the fashion changed, just change the name so your rabbits can compete! I am glad I am not trying to show my rabbits, just wanting nice consistent furs to sell and tasty dinners for myself and friends! Car show categories were sufficiently complex enough for me, live things are just too variable.

 

[Piper]

The Silver breed, is also called "Riche"
the Argent breed, depends on country and which of the seven colors, you are referring to.
the Silver Fox breed, - Seems to be the 'third' rabbit breed, that they were able to get a silver variation.
- this is a guess
These breeds looked like silver, and that was why when the animal called a chinchilla, was found
it was not only it's fur that was the attraction, it was the color.