Himi/sable point/REW gene questions

[siddsaysgimmie]

Anyone able to help me with my questions?

I'm going to be starting a himi Holland Lop program soon.. just got a himi ND doe today to cross to my HLs (colors are hard to find around here).

I have two bucks: a sable point buck who likely carries REW and his dad, a tort who is out of a sable point dam (assuming that he carries shaded). What color outcomes will I get out of either cross?

If you breed a himi to a rabbit that doesn't carry it, will all of the babies carry the himi gene or will left up to chance? To get himis, do both parents have to be himi/carry the gene?

That's all.. for now. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bad Habit]

The next form of this gene is the Himalayan gene (ch). This gene causes the production of pigment which is heat sensitive so that color is only produced on parts of the body that have a cooler skin temperature. The result is a rabbit with Himalayan markings of dark ears, nose, feet, and tail but no other body color.

The most recessive form of this gene is the Albino gene (c). This prevents any pigment formation so as to produce a red eyed white rabbit when both genes of the pair are in this form (cc).

source

So a himalayan would be either chch or chc. I would do a test breeding to REW. Since rew is cc, you'd either get all himi's, if the doe is chch, or himi's and rew if the doe is chc. That will let you know if your babies will definitely carry himi, or have only a 50/50 chance.

Since we don't know what the doe is other than ch-, there is no way to tell what the breedings would produce. Unless the buck carries REW, you wouldn't get himi.

 

[Dood]

Himi x sable with REW gene = 12 to 25% Himi and 88 to 75% other

Himi x Tort with shaded gene = 50% shaded and 50% other

The kits will carry himi OR REW depending on if the doe is homozygous or heterozygous at the C locus.

And i would just like to comfirm that your Himalayan doe has red eyes.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

I don't have a REW to test breed her to, or I would do that.

What could "other" be? Just want to make sure I know if it'll be something alarming.. hehe.

She definitely has red eyes. Here she is.

__________ Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:54 pm __________

 

[Dood]

Because a himi is basically a pointed REW there is no knowing what is hiding in her genes. If you have any info on her parents and siblings colours it would help.

Your two bucks are black rabbits with other genes modifying them, making them shaded and tort. You will likely get blacks but without knowing more about the colours of their parents, siblings and offspring you could really get anything.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

The himi doe is out of two himis (one black, one blue) then has sable points and himi in her pedigree.

The bucks are out of torts and a sable point or two.. maybe a blue tort somewhere. They are father and son. Usagi (tort buck) had blue tort siblings. Eisley (sable point buck) had tort and sable point siblings.

I definitely don't mind blacks..

 

[Dood]

Alright, that helps

The doe is likely homozygous ( no REW in history) for Himalayan so all of her off spring will carry the himi gene. She is also most likely a black so you should not get any chestnut/agouti kits and non extension since she came from sable pointed stock and she has a 50% chance of carrying blue.
I believe her genotype is 'aa B_ ch ch Dd ( or DD) ee'

The tort buck will likely carry a blue gene and a shaded gene from his mother.
His genotype is 'aa B_ C cch Dd ee'

Your shaded buck likely has a shaded gene and you say a REW gene and a 50% chance he got a blue.
His genotype is 'aa B_ cch c Dd ( or DD) ee'

Himi x Tort = 50% shaded & 50% tort.
There is a 25% chance you will get blue in the litter, either blue point, or blue tort.

Himi x Shaded = 50% himi & 50% shaded
And there is a 12.5% chance you will get blue in some form.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

You will totally mess up your Himis putting the tort/sable point non extension gene into your himis.Its a big no no, as is using agouti as well.The ONLY bet is to use rew for all Himi marks in the litters. Then I am assuming you are going for showable rabbits? The longer route would be from selfs and getting Himis further down the generations. But rews will give you the faster way.However seeing as most good Hollands seem to be Torts, then finding a rew thats not non extension will be hard! This is probably the number one reason good Himis are rare to find in Hollands.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

Thanks, Dood. That really helps. I thought that if a rabbit had a dilute parent then the babies all either carry or are dilute? Is that incorrect? I was thinking that my himi carried dilute because her dam is a blue himi.

Devon's Mom, I thought that tort may mess up the color but had no idea sable points would. How is that? There really are no REWs around here at all. There is only one PW doe that I know of and I am looking into getting a baby from her but it would be out of a tort father. I was going to breed my two sable points together in hopes of getting a REW but I assume it would be hiding tort if I got one. Not many options.. I do have some blacks, but they are does. I think the 4 week old black buck I have right now is fuzzy.

 

[Dood]

Yes, you are right. She will definitely carry a blue and be 'Dd', sorry about that.

Non-extension (ee) in torts and sables is the problem, not the shading. Breeding non extension to a himi, will lighten the color of the points and in the second generation you will get tort himi rabbits with brownish ears. You will need to be very brutal in your culling to eliminates the non extension gene but since it can hide it will be nearly impossible to find out who carries it without test breeding.

If you cannot get REW then a better choice would be to breed the himi to a seal or Siamese sable rather than sable points and torts, since they do not have two copies the the non extension gene and maybe even be 'EE' if they don't have any torts of sable points in their family tree.

 

[skysthelimit]

For Rex, we breed the himi into the Otter and of course black as well. Seriously. Of course it's hard to get a Rex that does not carry REW. I have a himi buck, which will be bred into my otter does. The otter does are from a REW (ata) and a broken black buck, so thy all carry black and REW The only foreseeable problem is the broken black carries dilute, and there are no dilute himis in Rex.

If you have a hard time getting a REW holland, I have a feeling you are going to have a really hard time finding a seal Holland. It's a rare color in nearly every breed. I finally have a seal Rex, and guard her like a hawk!

 

[Dood]

I am not familiar with popular holland colours but bred seal and sable NDwarfs in the 80's and found them quite common. Any bun that did not have the non extension gene but was a self (aa) or from the tan group (at a) would probably work. And if you use your current stock, you will just need to warn buyers that your buns my carry non extension. Since the himi is not a lop but a NDwarf, you will likely need many generations to get good type anyway and can work on eliminating the 'ee'

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

This is some great info, I really appreciate it.

There are not many breeders in my area so it's hard to find any colors you want. There are torts/blue torts, orange/creams, a few otters, a couple chocolates, a few blacks (it took me years to find one of my own), I believe there are some random tri colors. Even sable point is hard to come by.

Here is what I have on hand, just to give you an idea: tort doe (carries chl), tort buck (carries chl), sable point buck (likely carries REW), black doe (carries tort - would you call that non-extension? and chl), sable point doe, tort doe, broken tort doe (not sure what these one carry), broken sable point doe (carries REW). Also have a cream and frosty but won't use them for PWs.

I knew this would be a long road, since I am using a ND in the first place. I don't really mind too much about culling for normal himis, but I would like to know how I could go about it the best way possible for me. I won't be selling any of these babies to breeders, so I can only mess up my own breeding program. hehe. Anyone have a pic of a non-extension himi?

Is there any way to breed for a seal?

 

[Dood]

Getting rid of non extension 'ee' in your rabbits by breeding to black will turn your sable points into seals and siamese sable.

Your frosty may also carry a dark chinchilla gene which will give an ever darker seal that is nearly black.

Breed the himi to anything with REW and without the non-extension and try and develop a REW and himi line that excludes your other buns.

You mention otters available in your area, they are 'EE' and don't carry the non extension (tort) gene 'ee' so maybe try and add one of those to your herd since you only have one black, who also carries tort. And Skysthelimit says they wont lighten your himi points.

 

[majorv]

I saw that a rabbitry by the name of Himadri Hollands in Michigan has developed pointed whites (himis). It says they're developing them to be showable. You could probably get additional information from them.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

What do I breed to black to get siamese sables and seals? My sable point buck? What do I breed to my frosty to get seals? If I use otters won't I get tan-patterned himis?

Thanks majorv, I'll probably ask them a few questions along the way.

 

[Dood]

What do I breed to black to get siamese sables and seals? My sable point buck?

Yes, you should get 50% siamese (aa, cchl_, E_) in the litter. You may even get a seal in this litter, seals have two light shaded genes (cchl cchl) and you believe the black carries shaded. The rest of the litter will likely be sable points. Then breed the siamese kits to black or other siamese to get rid of the non extension (e) and work on getting two shaded genes to get seals.

What do I breed to my frosty to get seals?

If the frosty carries a dark shaded (cchd), you only need one of these to set seals. Breed the frosty to a sable point and see what happens. You may get seals in this litter but if you only get agouti (A_) marked kits (chestnut, chinchilla, frosty) then breed the chinchilla to a sable and you should get seals next time. If you get sable points then the your frosty has a light shaded gene, you can still get seals from these by breeding them to a black that carries sable. If you only get some agouti kits, dont breed them but breed the others to black or siamese. Frostys are suppost to be "agouti, black, chinchilla, blue, torts " with a genotype of "A_ B_, cchd_, dd, ee" BUT that is not ALWAYS the case, so you might get some blue mixed in with sables, sallanders, chinchillas and torts since blue seems to be common in your buns.

If I use otters won't I get tan-patterned himis?

The markings of the Tan series (at_) can often be masked by genes on other loci, and I trust the other forum members experiences and advice. I believe the important part is that otters are full extension(E_), not chin or shaded and are not agouti.

This is my favorite rabbit genotype website and I reference to it alot to keep on track.
http://www.nockrabbits.com/coat_colors1.html

 

[skysthelimit]

Another really interesting holland site is www.gbfarm.com. As popular as hollands are here, they are mostly still torts, my least favorite color.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

Great, thank you Dood. I think my best bet would be to breed my sable point buck to my black doe. I'm guessing that she carries shaded as she has has a sable point in both of her litters. She just had babies the other day, so next time she will be put in with my SP. Good thing that she is my favorite producing doe. I'm excited with the chance of getting siamese sables.. they are one of my favorites.

If I breed the two, will there be any chance of getting blacks, or will anything dark like that be seals? I feel like I would be annoyed trying to figure if they're seals or blacks. If I see a nice otter for sale, I will try to get it.

 

[Dood]

If she had sable kits she could have the shaded gene but she could also have the Himalayan or REW and it could have been the buck who had a shaded.

You could get black, seal, sable, sable point and tort. You could get other colours depending on hidden recessive, the only colours I can rule out for certain are anything with agouti.