HELP!! BOTH does suddenly digging out their pellets!!

[Comet007]

On Saturday evening at feeding time, we suddenly noticed big piles of pellets under BOTH of the does cages!! As some of you may recall, the girls had both started going through all of their pellets and hay about four days after we bred them. At the time they were both getting 6 oz a day, plus free fed hay. We gradually increased, 1 oz at a time, until they were both at 10 oz of pellets a day, and they were still going through it all, but we stopped there. Both does have gotten much larger since we bred them on April 16th.

Saturday was the day for a "pay increase", since they are due this upcoming Saturday. When we were feeding them I noticed a pile of pellets under the feeder in the worm bed in one cage - then under the other - both of them are doing it! It's hard to say when it started, but there was probably 15-20 oz of pellets (or more!) under both cages! Shaggy is eating his pellets just fine, nothing under his cage. Since they both pass the spine feel test, they are clearly well fed but not fat - they both look pregnant when they lay down and their bellies go out to the side - both bellies are very firm and round, though I don't know how to feel for babies at this point. We had already put their 10 oz of pellets in the feeders, or we might have cut down on them.

Instead of increasing their pellets for this last week of (hopefully) pregnancy, we did a mix of 2 parts steel cut oats, 1 part white wheat berries, 1 part barley and 1/2 part flax seed. We gave each of the girls 3 T of the mix, along with their "Kindling Tonic" that they will get from now through the third week of nursing in a separate dish, and just left it at that.

My thought is, they are clearly eating some of the pellets, but how much? DH had added a layer of hay to the worm beds under the cages about 10 days before we found this, and there weren't any pellets dropped down there at that time. So I guess the questions are:

1) WHY? Why are they suddenly digging? We only put pellets in their feeders, all other herbs and treats go in a separate dish. It can't be because the pellets are bad, they still smell and look the same and all buns are still eating some and all look healthy. Is this normal behavior in a pregnant doe? It's odd that they are both doing it, but Shaggy is not.

2) Could it be because they want to start building a nest? Maybe because the pellets are the only thing they CAN dig in their cages? We did have the incident recently where Daphne was trying to remove the resting pad from the opening to the Sani-Nest and cut herself, so maybe that's related?

So yesterday morning we cleaned out the Sani-Nests (hay and the odd dropped bunny berry), removed the covers and gave both of the girls a huge pile of hay in the cage, as well as filling their hay racks. We also put 5 oz of pellets in their feeders, and lay fresh straw directly under their feeders in the worm bed so we could see if they dig any more pellets out (they had Saturday night, stinkers!!).

Yesterday afternoon I checked on them - they had both eaten quite a bit of the hay, and most of the rest they had put down into the Sani-Nest - though Daphne also covered most of her cage floor with a thin layer lol. These are rabbits who usually keep their cages very tidy! Maybe the wrong thing to do, but I pulled the hay back out and tidied it all up into the corner by the Sani-Nest to see what they would do, and a few hours later at feeding time they had repeated the process - including Daphne spreading it out on the floor. They both seemed to have ignored their hay racks.

Maybe most importantly - they didn't dig any pellets out and seemed to have eaten about half - usually we only give pellets in the evening, so I don't think they eat much pellets usually during the day time.

So now we don't have any idea how much pellets they were eating, and have to guess at what we should feed them! I think we will move them down to 8 oz of pellets plus their grain/seed mix and see what they eat. Grrr. Is this normal hormonal type behavior? And if they're eating the hay now, will they eat it when there are kits in the nest box? We were planning to use hay in the nest box to encourage the young kits to nibble on it - and we get our organic hay for only $5.50 per 40 pound bale so it's easy and affordable.

Any help?

 

[dayna]

sounds like nestbuilding! Can you give them some straw or something inside the cage? Maybe cardboard?

 

[Bad Habit]

I have does who will start digging from the moment they conceive, so I would assume that is it. I put a piece of straight wire across the top of the jfeeder(make it removable, I remove it once the kits are out and about, as I had one poor baby end up getting his head caught between the wire and the edge of the jfeeder and die).

They will eat the hay, offer them as much as possible to keep them from uncovering the kits.

 

[Comet007]

Thanks! So it sounds like their digging is confirmation of pregnancy? We use the Bass feeders that are flush to the cage, not the J-feeders, so I'm not sure that putting wire across their would work. We will continue to watch to see if they keep digging. So far having the hay to play with has kept them from digging their feed. Silly us thinking they wouldn't feel any kind of digging/nesting urge until day 28! Especially since I've read so much here on RT about the various things other peoples rabbits do!

We gave them hay inside the cage - a huge pile! - plus their full hay feeders, which are mounted outside the cage. They are eating the hay in their cages, plus putting some in the subterranean Sani-Nest, plus one doe is spreading it around the floor of the whole cage, which is 26" deep by 48" wide! We haven't been able to find any organic straw - we do have some two year old hay - very clean and mold free - that we've been using in the garden to hill up the potatoes. I was wanting to use fresh hay in the nest box primarily to encourage the kits to nibble at it in the first weeks to ease transition to solid foods. When the kits come I will check the nest regularly and just keep an extra pile of hay in the cage corner in front of the Sani-nest hole - the does do not use that area as a bathroom area, and maybe having that to eat easily will keep them from eating the hay in the actual nest!

We do have the cardboard liners for the Sani-Nest that Bass Equipment Co. also sells, but be were hesitant to put it in the Sani-Nest so early. Wednesday is day 28, which is when I was planning to put in the cardboard. It's pretty warm here now (off and on), but it is still getting down as low as 46 degrees at night, so I think we will still need the cardboard for insulation when the kits come. I'm ok with putting it in early, just didn't want to waste it if they use the nest as a bathroom. So far they have not soiled any of the hay at all, which really surprised me. Should we go ahead and put the cardboard liner in the nest? Maybe having it be darker in there will give the does the idea of real nest building?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I don't know why they dig their pellets out at times, but it sure is frustrating. I have one doe that recently started doing it, and she too is pregnant. When I came home from Reno, there was an ENORMOUS pile on the resting board below her cage. :shock:

My feeders are mounted at two inches, which was a mistake on my part. It is better to mount them at about 4" to discourage digging.

I put a piece of straight wire across the top of the jfeeder

We use the Bass feeders that are flush to the cage, not the J-feeders, so I'm not sure that putting wire across their would work.

Same here, at least in the bunny barn. I am going to try putting a smooth round stone in the feeder and see if that prevents Tyla from excavating pellets quite so thoroughly.

They will eat the hay, offer them as much as possible to keep them from uncovering the kits.

I like to bed the nests with inedible things (in addition to hay) like pine shavings and brown paper that I put through our document shredder.

We do have the cardboard liners for the Sani-Nest that Bass Equipment Co. also sells, but be were hesitant to put it in the Sani-Nest so early. I'm ok with putting it in early, just didn't want to waste it if they use the nest as a bathroom.

I have found that does will shred the cardboard if the nest is put in too early. That is part of the reason that I use the plastic wallboard cut to fit rather than cardboard.

Wednesday is day 28

Whoo-hoo! Popples soon!

 

[Comet007]

I don't know why they dig their pellets out at times, but it sure is frustrating. I have one doe that recently started doing it, and she too is pregnant. When I came home from Reno, there was an ENORMOUS pile on the resting board below her cage. :shock:

My feeders are mounted at two inches, which was a mistake on my part. It is better to mount them at about 4" to discourage digging.

Funny - we have the "adult" feeder at 6" above the floor, and the "baby" feeder at 4". Each of the does cages has two of the 60 oz. feeders, and I had read about digging in lower feeders, so we put ours higher! We've been feeding the girls in the feeders that are 6" up and just leaving the others empty for now lol. Apparently this was not good enough!

As for the cardboard - I'm more concerned about them fouling it than shredding it. The way the edges of the cardboard are tucked under the folded wire makes them pretty tough to get to. I'm sure they could still find a way, but supposedly the one piece cardboard liners sold by Bass are supposed to be hard for them to chew. It's a tough call, but since we're at day 26, it does seem early to put it in. Hopefully they will stop the digging now that we gave them the hay and started feeding them the grain mix - which they absolutely love!

We don't have a paper shredder anymore, but I was wondering about maybe putting some cotton balls in there - but wouldn't that keep the babies from eating it too?

We are VERY excited for our first litters! I do hope that the girls have healthy kits and are good first time moms. I keep reminding DH to remember that it is not unusual to lose first litters, so we shouldn't get our hopes up too high, but the closer we get the more we do NOT want to have a tragic end to the litters!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

As for the cardboard - I'm more concerned about them fouling it than shredding it. The way the edges of the cardboard are tucked under the folded wire makes them pretty tough to get to. I'm sure they could still find a way, but supposedly the one piece cardboard liners sold by Bass are supposed to be hard for them to chew.

I wasn't talking about them chewing it so much as tearing it apart while digging. When they are in the hay-mustache mode they will pick pieces up too, but the digging is what does most of the damage.

 

[Comet007]

That makes sense - I hadn't even thought of them digging a hole through the face of the cardboard! Crazy rabbits lol.

 

[Zass]

When my Pancake is pregnant, she becomes Pancake the Destroyer. :lol:

She tears apart plastic litter pans, shreds hay and straw into neat two-inch lengths, and chews or digs tunnels through wooden hutch walls or ceilings. She has to be in an all wire cage for this reason, and I always give her a dig-box full of straw to keep her happy.

She hasn't ever dug in her food dish, thankfully, or I would never have given her the "forever pet" status she has earned here. Other does I have do not show me any signs at all. Does are just like that. :roll:

 

[Comet007]

When my Pancake is pregnant, she becomes Pancake the Destroyer. :lol:

She tears apart plastic litter pans, shreds hay and straw into neat two-inch lengths, and chews or digs tunnels through wooden hutch walls or ceilings. She has to be in an all wire cage for this reason, and I always give her a dig-box full of straw to keep her happy.

She hasn't ever dug in her food dish, thankfully, or I would never have given her the "forever pet" status she has earned here. Other does I have do not show me any signs at all. Does are just like that. :roll:

You bring up a very good point, one that I've not shared with Mr. Sensitive - and that is, do we want does who dig pellets, and will they pass it on to their offspring!! Although if indeed this is pregnancy related, then hopefully in the future we can head it off by providing them with more to do! We will definitely be keeping a close eye on them and looking for ways to distract them. It's still so odd that BOTH girls are doing it, and there was pretty much the same amount of pellets wasted by both of them! They'd better be good mothers is all I can say!

It's especially painful that we pay $30/50 pound bag! That's some spendy vittles they are wasting!

 

[skip]

One of my does digs when she's pregnant, and I've got a litter right now who discovered the joy of digging in pellets a couple of days ago. Since in both cases the feeders aren't near the potty corners I just pop a bowl underneath and re-use it. I check on them often enough that usually nothing but pellet makes it into the bowl. I don't cut the kits off from calf manna and sunflower seeds when they dig, but when adults start digging I don't give them any treats until the digging stops. I always just figured they're looking for that good stuff that tastes like protein and fat under their normal boring food, but now that you mention it I don't think I've ever had any bucks dig in their food.

I did learn not to put the treats into the feeder the hard way. At one point I had seven J-feeders emptied under cages in an hour when every single stinkin' rabbit decided there must be more sunflower seeds at the bottom :evil: If digging isn't directly correlated to pregnancy it is certainly related to how low my current supply of pellets has gotten.

 

[Comet007]

Oh, my! I can't imagine having a whole litter in there digging expensive pellets out! At this point I almost wish there had been something obvious to change - but we started with flush mount (Bass) feeders placed 6" from the cage floor right off the bat, and never once put any treats in there! Thanks to all the reading I did here on RT and elsewhere, I was able to avoid these things because I read about the problems that others had! So we didn't really have anything that we could point to - except possibly that instinctively they might be trying to dig into the ground in preparation of kindling - but that's just a guess on our part.

I almost dread going down to the bunny barn today, because if they've dug out pellets again then I don't know what else to try, other than trying some way to put something under the cage to catch the pellets. Neither doe uses that corner as a bathroom, so it would probably be sanitary enough, just a PITA! Both does doing this same thing does make me wonder if their mother did it too... :shock:

 

[skip]

Maybe their mother did it too because she also had an owner like me who had to learn the hard way. I don't know exactly how long a rabbit's memory is, but I bet they store away knowledge of the location of treats in the longest term memory they've got. Who knows if these two were rewarded for the bad behavior before? I do think they'll knock it off in a few days though. I hope! $50 pellets, jimminy crickets... I can get my buns up to like 75% forage fed when the season is right, and I still don't think I could afford pellets that pricey. I wish you luck!

 

[Miss M]

I put a piece of straight wire across the top of the jfeeder

I had this start up once, and I didn't have some suitable wire handy. I did, however, have a bottle spring. So I used those, and they worked great!

Hard to take off, though. REALLY hard. There's one I still haven't gotten off, but it's not really an issue.

 

[Comet007]

Maybe their mother did it too because she also had an owner like me who had to learn the hard way. I don't know exactly how long a rabbit's memory is, but I bet they store away knowledge of the location of treats in the longest term memory they've got. Who knows if these two were rewarded for the bad behavior before? I do think they'll knock it off in a few days though. I hope! $50 pellets, jimminy crickets... I can get my buns up to like 75% forage fed when the season is right, and I still don't think I could afford pellets that pricey. I wish you luck!

Haha - did I say $50? It's $30 per 50 pounds - organic pellets, so a bit dear, but NOT $50! I don't think they got rewarded for treats before we bought them. The breeder we purchased from only fed pellets and it looked like a small handful of hay at each cage even if there were several buns inside. Now that I think of it, it's unlikely their mother got treats either - there blows that theory!

Hopefully they will knock it off permanently regardless!

 

[skip]

Forgive me, I just got back from the pet section of a grocery store. $5 for two pounds of pet bedding that cost $5 per 70 pound bale at the feed store earlier today... My mind was ready to believe any exorbitant price.

Just don't strangle the little dears before Saturday, is all I can say. It sucks to pay for as much food as a whole litter is going to eat before the litter even arrives! And at least they're knockin' around the pellets and not the pregnancy prep treats, right?

 

[Comet007]

**Update**
So yesterday we had put that huge pile of hay in their cages, plus in their hay racks. We also gave them a total of 8 oz of pellets for the day, plus their grain mix/herbs.

When we fed them tonight they had both eaten all the hay except a very loose inch or so of hay in the bottom of the Sani-Nest, and dug out just a little bit of the pellets. So tonight I gave them each a bigger hay pile, plus filled their hay feeders and we just gave them 6 oz of pellets plus the grains/herbs. Basically gave them each about two flakes of hay inside the cage, plus the 11" hay rack. I think that's enough to fill the hay rack like 6 times? Maybe a little more. We shall see what they do with it all tonight, and if they dig again. If so then we will need to try to figure out something to rig up under the pellet feeder.

Do these silly rabbits realize that they are EDIBLE??? Of course, all will be forgiven if they give us good litters and are good mamas.

__________ Mon May 12, 2014 8:33 pm __________

Forgive me, I just got back from the pet section of a grocery store. $5 for two pounds of pet bedding that cost $5 per 70 pound bale at the feed store earlier today... My mind was ready to believe any exorbitant price.

Just don't strangle the little dears before Saturday, is all I can say. It sucks to pay for as much food as a whole litter is going to eat before the litter even arrives! And at least they're knockin' around the pellets and not the pregnancy prep treats, right?

Haha, I had posted my EDIBLE question before I saw your post! Since these are our first rabbits and first litters, and we had to build them a barn, these are some VERY expensive litters right now! They definitely ate up the pregnancy prep treats - and they sure aren't wasting their grain mix or their "kindling tonic", which is a mix of I think 7 herbs. Hopefully after all this we will have some :mbounce: this Saturday! Actually Friday would be even better, my girlfriend will be visiting for dinner!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Actually Friday would be even better, my girlfriend will be visiting for dinner!

No, no! You are supposed to let them grow up a bit first!

 

[Miss M]

Actually Friday would be even better, my girlfriend will be visiting for dinner!

No, no! You are supposed to let them grow up a bit first!

:rotfl:

 

[Comet007]

Actually Friday would be even better, my girlfriend will be visiting for dinner!

No, no! You are supposed to let them grow up a bit first!

What??!!? That's crazy - can't we just make kit soup? :cauldron:

I knew someone would say something right after I posted that! She will have to content herself with meatloaf and my super-fantabulous Cheesy sweet potato garlic chipotle mashed potatoes!