Nymphadora":3lle0khd said:
You'll have to post some updated pictures of the remaining popples... if one's starting to open his little peepers, they must've grown a good bit since the last time we saw them!
You did the right thing, and I hope the heartache heals soon. I can't imagine how sad it must be to cull a little hand-fed babe. :encourage:
Thanks Nymph, the other babies sure helped that heartache dissipate in a timely manner, lol. They are just way too bloody cute! So, they do this thing where if I lean down to talk to them while they are in the towel or even breath on them they go nuts, trying to climb out of the towel or out of my hands onto my face. :lol: "Momma!" I don't think my breath smells
that good, but thanks for the confidence booster kits.
I recorded a few feedings a couple days ago but have yet to edit them for upload, I'll do that today so y'all can giggle a bit at them. Adorable little crazies. Oh, I named another one... the biggest black baby is named Gaston, because he's loud and greedy! If I don't feed him fast enough (as I'm filling up the dropper again) he whines at me.
Here is a picture from yesterday, I haven't been able to get very many good ones recently but here's the blonde kit who is opening her eyes. Her eyes are both about 80% opened today but she keeps them closed mostly, only pops them open when I pick her up to feed and then closes them back once she's settled. I'm pretty sure she has no idea how to use them yet, but they are there! The others are getting bug-eyed so getting close too, Gaston has one starting to open at about 15-20% unglued, and the other blonde one is about 50% opened on both sides. Monday will be day 10 for them so a little ahead of schedule, but I think they were more developed in the womb than my previous litters were (who were pretty consistent at opening their eyes at day 11.) These guys seemed to get fur quicker as well.
MaggieJ":3lle0khd said:
Ah, it's really hard, especially when you've worked so hard to give them a chance.
Of course you feel bad . . . but I think you did the right thing for Scar-Belly.
I have to say, however, that I am in awe of how well you are doing with these kits! In most cases, kits that young that are deprived of a mother's milk are unlikely to survive more than a couple of days. Pat yourself on the back for doing an amazing job! :goodjob:
You would be doing a real service to your RT friends and rabbit-lovers everywhere if you could take notes as you go along: what formula you used, what worked, what needed tweaking, what you noticed along the way and adapted to the needs of these particular kits. If you, at some point, write it up, and post it -- with a link to this thread -- I can guarantee that I'll sticky it so we can easily find the information again when we need it.
:cheer1: :cheer2: :cheer1: :up: :bow: :clap: :clap2:
:mbounce: :greatjob: :mbounce:
Thanks Maggie! I couldn't have done this well without you guys providing wonderful support on the forum! I'll try and write something up that's concrete later.... you know, when they are weaned and survived, lol. I feel extremely confident about the remaining kits living though, they are growing, eyes opening, and very active little guys! Until then I'll try and keep this thread full of notes so that I can easily look back through it and find my conclusions. Oh, and I got the Bene-Bac in late Thursday so yesterday and today they've been on that instead of the goat antibiotic.
So one thing I tweaked is the frequency of feeding; I watched a youtube of a gentleman bottle feeding a kit and he said he only feeds them once a day because that's how often the mother feeds them, but I know from experience shelving litters that they get fed by MY does twice a day, morning and evening. I've heard a few does will only feed once a day but this does not seem to be consistent with my experience at all. So I started out feeding them formula as often as I would normally take the kits out for feeding from momma, and I think that was my FIRST mistake.
There is a BIG difference between mother's milk and this formula, and I shouldn't have overlooked it. When kits are getting milk from their mother, twice a day is more than plenty and the occasional once a day never hurt anyone. But this is NOT mother's milk and is not
as compatible to their needs, going through them quicker and leaving less nutrients absorbed. In this case with formula they need more frequent feedings than they would have otherwise since this is not "quite" as good. I only started feeding them 3x a day once I noticed Scar-Belly fading out on me. I had noticed they were looking bonier, even with full bellies, but then I was also combatting bloat and didn't want to feed them too much. I felt a bit trapped, like, "I need to feed them more but if I do then they get bloat????"
So day 1-5 they were only getting fed 2x a day, morning and evening, and then on day 6 (Wednesday) when I initially noticed a decline in Scar-Belly did I up the amount of feeding times to 3x a day to hopefully get enough food in him to sustain his little life. I do wonder if I had started out 3x a day if he'd still be alive... but I'm not beating myself up over it. Life and learn.
Bottom line: I should have asked about how many times to feed them formula instead of just assuming it would be the same as I was used to. Formula milk =/= mother's milk.
Another thing I had briefly mentioned is the bloat and what I concluded caused it. At first I thought I overfed him, and he drank the formula too fast which caused it, but what I really think is he drank too much
luke-warm/cool formula and lowered his body temp too much. Then being put back in with the rest of the kits, who had also drank the luke-warm/cool formula and their body temps were dropped as well, so the whole nest wasn't as warm as it should have been to help them digest. The next day when I experienced the bloat in most of the kits even when I was making SURE to slowly feed them and to not overfeed them did I realize what Maggie had warned me of previously in this topic:
MaggieJ":3lle0khd said:
Remember that kits can only digest milk or formula if they are warm to start with--they can't do it while still chilled. If they need two bottles, put one on one side of the box and the other at the top or bottom.
Now I have utilized her advice about the water bottles, and prior to starting feeding I have two small water bottles that I put hot water in and then place them at the bottom and the side of the nestbox, (they are not directly next to the kits, there is a blanket or towel layer in-between) and then I refresh those bottles with hot water when I am done with feeding. That way even if the formula has cooled off when they ingest it and they have a belly full of luke-warm liquid, they go into a nice and toasty nest box to sleep and digest their meals.
I have also taken to re-heating the water bath that the formula is sitting within after each individual kit feeding. Feed one, reheat water, feed one, reheat water, this way the formula never gets too cold on them. Since doing this we have had zero instance of bloat
(and the kits love those water bottles! Cuddling up right in the corner of them, lol.)
Bottom line: Keep those babies warm! ... and listen to people who know more about rabbits than you do, lol.
Oh! One last thing... I have
so many different types of bottles/nipples and syringes to feed these guys with and the best one for these kits? The dang glass dropper from Walmart. :roll: I tried the
luer lock syringe (because I had one) and that was just way too messy. The
luer slip syringe worked "okay" but it didn't fit into the mouth of my milk container, still probably my second favorite. I picked up some
feeding syringes (curved tips) from my local vet but they are really too large for rabbits and the formula slides out too fast even with minor pressure, thankfully they were free! I expected to purchase them but they just gave them to me, so no loss there. The
kitten bottle / nipple system was too unwieldy at this point, the long thin nipple attachment was the right size, but it was too long and bent away when the kit tried to grab it. The regular kitten nipples were a good size, but too large. I feel I will probably end up switching to this bottle and nipple once the kits are older and have larger mouthes. There are
two glass droppers that come in a pack at Walmart (or CVS/Walgreens), one is a straight feed and the other is angled, I think I prefer the straight.... but both works just as well and my kits seems to do best on them though I am worried about the glass aspect of it. What if they break as the kit is feeding? What if the kit chips a tooth? But so far it's their (and my) favorite vehicle for formula.
Currently I am using the formula outlined by Homer in
this thread but halving the recipe. (1/4th cup goats milk, half an egg yolk, 1/4th tsp corn syrup, 1/2tsp colostrum, 16th tsp probiotic)
