Grass fed experiment, first try

[GBov]

So I put three not too well bred Altex into a four ft by two ft cage on grass and moved it two to five times a day. When they lost weight I turned it into 8 ft by 2 ft and started giving them each a cup of pellets a day while still moving the cage two times a day at least.

Processed them today and, while they had put meat on they were still thin and had NO FAT AT ALL on them! Not a speck!

They are in the fridge now with 12 others so a taste test will be soon to see if the flavor is any way different.

One very interesting difference though, their stomachs were double the size of the pellet bunnies and the stomach wall was MUCH thicker and tougher.

Why, with so much grass and weeds and pellets did they not gain weight like the cage bunnies?

The cage will get three Rex does for four or five weeks and then I will see how Florida White do, starting with just grass and weeds and supplementing with pellets if they loose weight on just grass.

It would be nice to have at least three rabbits at a time on no pellets.

 

[Dood]

How long were they getting grass only?

When did you start offering pellets and for how long were they on them until you butchered?

 

[GBov]

How long were they getting grass only?

When did you start offering pellets and for how long were they on them until you butchered?

They went in at 8 weeks old and had no pellets for two weeks. They looked fine but when I caught one to process it was very thin so we gave pellets for three more weeks to try to put some weight back on.

As I said, they were meaty enough but not a speck of fat on them and I do like rabbit fat. Tward the end I was even throwing in handfuls of weeds I was pulling out of the garden.

The livers looked as good as the caged bunnies so that was good, my worry was cocci with them on the ground.

But, having said that about their thinness, all of those rabbit (we were "gifted" four bred does and a buck and told they were Altex) were champion eaters, even better than the New Zealands! :shock: So the fact they didn't gain weight on pellets and grass shouldn't have surprised me, free choice pellets didn't bulk up the caged ones either.

NOT impressed with the Altex breed :angry: but I must be fair, they might have been misrepresented as Altex and just been meat mutts.

Three Rex does are going out today for 4 weeks in the cage. They have great shape and personalities but their fur is just that little bit not good enough so they have "volunteered" for the experiment.

Oh, one more thing I noticed about the first grass lot though, they were WAY behind their sibling in sexual maturity! The caged ones were fully descended and fighting by week 12 but the one buck on grass hadn't even descended yet by week 16.

 

[Dood]

You need a certain amount of body fat to be sexual - hormones are mostly lipid based and excessively lean animals will have delayed maturity

It sounds like the kits got "hay belly" in their first two weeks and were starving even though their stomachs were over full - it's a common condition in horses who are fed a poorer quality cattle hay (which is usually half the price of horse quality hay) and has very low protein and no fat as it's already dropped its seeds. No matter how much they eat they cannot get the nutrients to maintain let alone gain weight so they stuff themselves trying to satisfy their hunger.

Horses and rabbits are NOT ruminants and cannot get most of their energy needs from grass alone

IMHO you cannot 100% pasture without the consequences you've described - hay or straw (high in lignin and fibre) and grains (high in fat and protein) should be offered to maximize their growth

Fresh young grass and greens are usually much higher in simple sugars and starch that has yet to be turned into fibre, protein or fats - so they don't get the 16% protein they require to maximize muscle development and certainly no extra calories to turn into fat deposits. Another possibilty is that without lignin and long fibre in their diet the food passes too quickly through their systems and even less of these vital nutrients are removed.

However, since they were only pastured for 2 weeks I'm not sure why the pellets didn't help unless their stomach was critically damaged from acidosis which could be caused by a diet high in simple sugars and starch - a thickened rumen lining is a symptom seen in cattle with acidosis :shrug:

 

[GBov]

Their insides looked nice and healthy, no redness or swelling or gas or anything and their droppings were totally normal and nice.

I thought the stomach being so big and muscular was from having to handle so much roughage, having to work so much harder than the pellet fed ones.

Having had a bunch of kits loose their mum at 3 weeks I got well familiar with the look of rabbits with bad stomachs and poor digestion, even with unlimited pellets and hay they were thinly muscled with HUGE bellies. At 6 weeks I couldn't stand looking at them any more and turned them all into dog food. They just couldn't catch up with the other fryers and I refused to spend any more on them.

The dogs were well pleased with my decision. :lol:

The three Altex youngsters just lost weight and, while they never got any fat back on they at least gained the muscle mass back. And they were always clean and bright and alert looking, unlike that sad litter that were always dirty - even in an all wire cage - bloated and pathetic looking.

When ever I have a rabbit not doing well I turn them loose in the back yard. Watching what they choose to eat is so interesting. The one I have loose right now - a series of unfortunate events caused her some major foot problems - was standing on her hind legs yesterday eating Loquat leaves. As I know they are very cleansing to the liver and do lots of other major good things for people, I found it fascinating that she would stand on her still very sore hind legs to reach the leaves.

Another doe I had loose - she was just moping about her cage looking not quite right - not long ago went right for pepper weed which I didn't even know rabbits would eat, never mind go right past several favorite plants to get to. She then searched out all the buck cages and tried for several hours to work out how to get up to them. She had NO interest in breeding all spring so I had given up and retired her to pet status but when I popped her into a buck cage, she banged him off the roof she lifted so high. :lol:

For such a simple looking animal, they never fail to keep me fascinated! opcorn:

 

[Zass]

I agree with Dood about just grass not being a suitable rabbit diet.

Now...a lawn like mine, with more weeds than grass is probably fine.
Tons of dandelion, clover, plantain, and even lemon balm intruding...

Like you were describing, they will balance themselves if given some variety to work with.

People do forget that wild cottontails in the US max out between 3-5 lbs, where domestic rabbits have been designed to get to those weights in a number of weeks. Their growing bodies require a LOT more calories than a cottontail's.

 

[akane]

We 100% pastured horses every year from March to Nov and then 99% of the diet was alfalfa hay with a tiny bit of oats a night from when frost hit the grass. Mineral block at all times. Did it for a good 15+ years. Horses remained healthy. Even rather fat beyond a hay belly for some. Expended energy and did barrel racing competitions with no problems. But grass is not just grass. Iowa grass is not arizona grass is not texas grass is not louisiana grass.... I run in to it on the horse forums. Lots of people say you can't make a fat horse on just grass unless they have a health issue. You can most certainly do it on 40 acres of Iowa pasture. Climates that get a lot of cool weather and snow grow a lot of grass. In July the pasture gets kind of pathetic and starts to grow clover instead because grass grows when it's cool out and not when it's baked by the sun and 90F+.

Your main problem comes from the fact you are raising meat rabbits designed to be fed heavy and grow fast and you have a really small pen probably with a minimum of variety in comparison to a horse in a pasture. If we go by just weight and say horses and rabbits are equal then taking the suggested acres per horse you need about 500-1000sq ft per 8-10lb rabbit depending on pasture quality in your area of the country. Even with all that animals grow slowly and mature to breeding age slowly on such diets because of the lack of nutrients that push growth. Rabbits have been raised for a really long time on higher energy foods. You are going to have to breed toward pasture raised rabbits and provide more food and variety than is in your pen. It may be a few rabbit generations effort. You will also have to accept they just don't grow as fast no matter what you do. At minimum since you don't have suitable pasture space you should add hay (probably alfalfa) and a mineral block.

 

[GBov]

My lawn is more weeds than grass and they didn't eat the grass till last. Florida lawn grass is crunchy feeling and not very nice, to me at least. The rabbits and I like weeds better. :lol:

With the next trio to go in the pen I will start with their normal ration of pellets and they can just have the forage as an extra flavor booster and see if they loose, gain, or stay the same weight.

If I had to guess though, I think the Florida White's will do the best of all the breeds I plan to try on it as they get fat on a half cup of pellets a day, seldom even finishing those.

When I worked at a hunt kennel in England the horses were on grass all summer and came in glossy and fat. Most of the exercise for the first month back in the stable was to thin them down.

But then again, the grass over the pond puts inches of fat onto cattle. Oh, I do MISS proper grass fed beef, its just not the same on Fl. grass. All grass is NOT created equal!

 

[akane]

Yea we have big, squishy lush grass with lots of sugars. At an acre a horse or more they get fat easy. I went to run in arizona grass once and it was like walking on cacti. :lol: Usually when the sidewalks get that hot and we are barefoot we run in the cool squishy grass. Not there.

 

[GBov]

Yea we have big, squishy lush grass with lots of sugars. At an acre a horse or more they get fat easy. I went to run in arizona grass once and it was like walking on cacti. :lol: Usually when the sidewalks get that hot and we are barefoot we run in the cool squishy grass. Not there.

Grass envy!

Well, when we have sticker burs - Think a little ball of thumb tacks, all pointing in every direction. When walked on they stab deep into the flesh and have to be pried out. Very ouchy! - and you have all that lush grass its hard to not envy it.

But we have our own lime tree loaded down with little limes so the Deep South does have its compensations.

 

[Honey]

went right for pepper weed

What's pepper weed? Never heard of it! Have a pic and what it's good for? Sounds like a fertility inducer!

Honey

 

[GBov]

went right for pepper weed

What's pepper weed? Never heard of it! Have a pic and what it's good for? Sounds like a fertility inducer!

Honey

I have no idea what its proper name is (and no pictures either, sorry) but when bruised it has a sharp peppery smell and it tastes hot and peppery. Hence the common name.

When I have a chance I will see what Green Dean, Eat the Weeds, has to say about it, if anything.

 

[Zass]

Maybe Lepidium virginicum ?

http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/Plants ... epper.html

 

[michaels4gardens]

I have noticed that rabbits fed on weeds, and grass usually develop a larger stomach, it takes a lot more volume of weeds and grass to get the nutrients they need - then it would if fed high energy/ protein pellets. and -- unless I add cooked potato, sugar beet, or J-artichoke to the feed ration, they take at least a week longer to reach 5 lbs also.
In the mountains of Utah my rabbits can gain well and have just a little fat when fed weeds and grass, - when I was in Florida, they would have starved to death if that was all they had.

 

[Rainey]

I'm trying to understand the relative nutritional value of various forages and hay. How do you explain the difference you state about Florida and Utah? Is the green stuff in Florida more water content and so less nutrient dense than in Utah? Thank you for all the specifics you give about your experience with different feeds--you've helped me a lot.

 

[michaels4gardens]

I'm trying to understand the relative nutritional value of various forages and hay. How do you explain the difference you state about Florida and Utah? Is the green stuff in Florida more water content and so less nutrient dense than in Utah? Thank you for all the specifics you give about your experience with different feeds--you've helped me a lot.

Probably someone else can a scientific explanation, but I know there is a big difference in protein levels with low elevation forage verses high elevation , and I have read that - one reason for florida's notoriously low feed values, is not having much topsoil, and very little nitrogen in the sugar sand most hay is grown in .

 

[GBov]

Grass in Florida is sparse and dry, the weeds are better but they go over so fast into seed that it needs fresh rain to keep a nice crop even of weeds going. Being on pure sand doesn't help, even after a rain the soil is bone dry after two days.

And I DO NOT IRRIGATE GRASS!!! What a waste of something important! Lawns should all go into organic food production and every roof should have huge tanks for water storage to water the food plants. When it rains we get inches at a go so filling........

Sorry, just found myself on a soap box so have gotten off now. :lol:

Was going to put the next batch of bunnies into the grass tractor but now need it to teach the Muscovy ducklings to live on the 4H lake. It might be awhile till it goes back to the experiment but whey hey, the ducks are important too.

 

[akane]

Florida grass probably has less water. It's not the water content exactly. Although big juicy Iowa grass would have more water. Grass in cool weather with enough water produces sugars and proteins for growth. It probably also has a higher overall calorie content and I would guess less tough fiber. Most of the growth of grass is done when it's cool. You are actually supposed to remove horses with metabolic issues from pasture if you get a cold spell at the beginning or end of the year and any cold rain storms. They won't be able to process the sugars well, develop fat in abnormal areas, and founder which is when toxins put off by the digestive tract, a certain strain of bacteria is the current hypothesis, damage the tissue connecting the dead outer hoof (equivalent to our nail) with the live growing parts of the hoof. Potentially fatal and nearly always ruins any competitive or working career.

 

[JessiL]

We pasture as many of our grow-outs as I have tractor space for, and have done so for three years now. Here in northern Nevada (high elevation, naturally a desert, four seasons), I find I get the best growth rates if I give them about 1/2 to 1/3 of the pellet ration they'd get if they were in normal cages. The pellets seem to also satisfy their mineral and micro-nutrient needs so that we don't need to bother with salt licks.

Our pasture is dominated by fescues and Kentucky bluegrass, but there are a good number of legumes and forbs (everything from several species of clovers, alfalfa, plantago, dandelion, to cinquefoils) that we are always trying to increase in number and density. Perhaps some day we'll have enough non-grass rich feeds in there to successfully raise grow-outs without pellet supplements, but I'm not holding my breath. I bet I'd at least have to cut and carry in higher protein feeds like willow, alfalfa, and chicory. The pastured buns definitely come out significantly leaner and take 1-2 weeks longer to reach butchering size. I do love rabbit suet from around the kidneys, but we have enough cage-raised fryers to satisfy that desire - all the rest can be the leaner pasture-raised guys.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you'll have to experiment with the optimal blend of pasture and supplements for your particular rabbits and property. I personally don't mind waiting a week or two in order to save on commercial feed (though if you have to wait too long, the total amount of pellets consumed per rabbit starts to approach what it would be for caged rabbits that are butchered much earlier), especially since the rabbits do such a good job of spreading fertilizer and aerating the pasture.

 

[Rainey]

I'm in mid-state NY and keep meat mutts in cages but don't feed pellets. Right now we're feeding willow, brambles (rose and raspberry), dandelions, dock, burdock, comfrey, clover and grass. Also feed the grow-outs and nursing does some grain--oats and wheat. And they all have hay, mixed grass and clover, all the time.
I'd like to understand better the relative nutrition of hay and fresh grass/clover. I'd thought that the grass was most nutritious when it is growing fast, before it starts to head out. Is that right? (And I know to only feed the burdock and dock early while the leaves are small.) It makes sense to me that the nutrition in any feed depends on the soil. I just hadn't realized that elevation made a difference. There are lots of discussions about the merits of different percentage protein pellets and of what wild and garden greens are "safe" for rabbits. But not so much about how to balance the natural diet and how season, soil etc. affect the nutrients available in various natural feeds.Guess we'll just have to keep good records, gather and feed a variety of forage through the seasons, and learn as we go. I appreciate all who take time to tell what works (and doesn't) for them.
Just saw the first green showing on the little bare root mulberries we planted last month--looking forward to having that to add to my buckets another year.