Genetics WWYD

[AShelBunny]

I have two bucks:

Walter 13 mos - New Zealand mutt
Black otter (dad: black, mom: chestnut)
7#15

Tigger 6 mos - TAMUK
Harlequin (parents harlequin but litter mates broken blue)
8#4
Has really long shoulders

My doe is a pedigree red New Zealand
Dad was broken red and everything else red


1. I'm so disappointed with my TAMUK body shape what do I do about him? His plus is heat tolerance and he's got a nice personality. His body shape is terrible.

2. Which buck would you breed to my new doe? (Goals: beautiful color, personality, freezer)

 

[eco2pia]

I have two bucks:

Walter 13 mos - New Zealand mutt
Black otter (dad: black, mom: chestnut)
7#15

Tigger 6 mos - TAMUK
Harlequin (parents harlequin but litter mates broken blue)
8#4
Has really long shoulders

My doe is a pedigree red New Zealand
Dad was broken red and everything else red


1. I'm so disappointed with my TAMUK body shape what do I do about him? His plus is heat tolerance and he's got a nice personality. His body shape is terrible.

2. Which buck would you breed to my new doe? (Goals: beautiful color, personality, freezer)

To be honest, I would just breed her to one this time, and the other the next time, and compare the litters you get. they will be mutts/cross breeds either way, so you might as well try either.

I would not fault your tamuk body type too heavily. It is my understanding that they do not have a breed standard per se, and the body type is a bit "mandolin" style, which is not the NZ standard, but is still a great meat rabbit as most rabbit meat is in the loin and hind legs anyway. Potentially the lack of mass in the torso of the rabbit improves cooling, and if that is so, I would happily take it.

 

[AShelBunny]

To be honest, I would just breed her to one this time, and the other the next time, and compare the litters you get. they will be mutts/cross breeds either way, so you might as well try either.

I would not fault your tamuk body type too heavily. It is my understanding that they do not have a breed standard per se, and the body type is a bit "mandolin" style, which is not the NZ standard, but is still a great meat rabbit as most rabbit meat is in the loin and hind legs anyway. Potentially the lack of mass in the torso of the rabbit improves cooling, and if that is so, I would happily take it.

Is it silly to have a pedigree?

I mean, this will improve my lines, right?

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have two bucks:

Walter 13 mos - New Zealand mutt
Black otter (dad: black, mom: chestnut)
7#15

Tigger 6 mos - TAMUK
Harlequin (parents harlequin but litter mates broken blue)
8#4
Has really long shoulders

My doe is a pedigree red New Zealand
Dad was broken red and everything else red


1. I'm so disappointed with my TAMUK body shape what do I do about him? His plus is heat tolerance and he's got a nice personality. His body shape is terrible.

2. Which buck would you breed to my new doe? (Goals: beautiful color, personality, freezer)

Beautiful color (in the eye of the beholder): Harlequin buck. He and the red doe are both agoutis, so you'll get more harlequins, possibly some chestnuts, maybe more reds. If you use the otter, among others you'll probably get harlequinized otters, which can look kind of messy. The harlequin may carry self, but the otter definitely will (courtesy of his black sire), and like otter, self does not always go well with harlequin. The red doe probably doesn't carry dilute (though it's possible) so most likely no blues or lilacs even if the buck carries dilute. You won't get any brokens or tris from either (one of the parents has to be a broken for that).

Personality: a nice rabbit will typically produce more nice rabbits, but it's not a 100% thing. I've found it's more obviously reliant on the doe, who gives the bunnies her genetics but also her influence (they tend to copy her behavior). Unless the otter is nasty, I wouldn't give either buck the edge here.

Freezer: @eco2pia is absolutely right - a mandolin shape can be a great meat rabbit. If the long shoulder is nice and full, that will give you good meat, and it's true that the biggest contribution comes from the loin and hind legs. My acid test for meat type is to look at the width and depth of the loin. From the photos it seems to me that doe might have a pretty decent loin, but I can't really tell whether either buck does or not.

You can see how to evaluate loin depth here:
https://rabbittalk.com/threads/crossbreeding-meat-rabbits-yes-or-no.35779/#post-348121

To evaluate width of loin, feel with your fingers right above the knee:

(This young blue otter buck, Honey B, has a fabulous loin.)

You're trying to feel this part of the rabbit:

Is it silly to have a pedigree?

I mean, this will improve my lines, right?

No, it's not at all silly to keep a pedigree, in fact it's a sensible thing to do. A pedigree is simply a record of parentage, which can help you learn all kinds of things about your rabbits without ever claiming they're purebred. Just note their lineage (e.g., New Zealand, TAMUK, or unknown crossbreed).

 

[eco2pia]

Is it silly to have a pedigree?

I mean, this will improve my lines, right?

I don't think I was saying that at all. I absolutely keep pedigrees for "mutts". I was more thinking that neither pairing is "showable" or registerable, so that is not a factor in choosing who to breed. In 3 generations, your mutts will be fully pedigreed. Also, if you are like me, you won't remember in a year which buck was your favorite if you don't keep records!! Absolutely keep records!!

 

[AShelBunny]

I don't think I was saying that at all. I absolutely keep pedigrees for "mutts". I was more thinking that neither pairing is "showable" or registerable, so that is not a factor in choosing who to breed. In 3 generations, your mutts will be fully pedigreed. Also, if you are like me, you won't remember in a year which buck was your favorite if you don't keep records!! Absolutely keep records!!

So, for my "New Zealand mutt" do I put "New Zealand" and in three generations it's a pure New Zealand? Or
... How do I put it

 

[eco2pia]

Hmm. I am not a show breeder, so there is probably a rule there from someone.

I would probably put "NZ Mutt" or just "mutt" if I truly have no idea what he is. If you bred to your pure NZ doe, and then bred those kits to pure NZ, and so on, eventually he will "fall off" the pedigree. At that point you will have pedigreed NZ to 3 generations which is what many people accept as "purebred". It is a way to go if you are trying to introduce something specific, but if your actual intention is to get to 100% pure NZ, it is generally MUCH easier to just buy good NZ breeding stock instead of reinventing the wheel.

It is not at all bad to have pedigreed mutts, in essence that is how the TAMUK breed got started. You have to keep records if you want to breed to any kind of goal, even if the goal is just to consistently have healthy fast growing rabbits to feed your family. Over time, if you always just pick the prettiest colored rabbits or the cutest, or the sweetest, you will lose meat producing characteristics for instance--this often is what happens to backyard breeders.

 

[AShelBunny]

Hmm. I am not a show breeder, so there is probably a rule there from someone.

I would probably put "NZ Mutt" or just "mutt" if I truly have no idea what he is. If you bred to your pure NZ doe, and then bred those kits to pure NZ, and so on, eventually he will "fall off" the pedigree. At that point you will have pedigreed NZ to 3 generations which is what many people accept as "purebred". It is a way to go if you are trying to introduce something specific, but if your actual intention is to get to 100% pure NZ, it is generally MUCH easier to just buy good NZ breeding stock instead of reinventing the wheel.

It is not at all bad to have pedigreed mutts, in essence that is how the TAMUK breed got started. You have to keep records if you want to breed to any kind of goal, even if the goal is just to consistently have healthy fast growing rabbits to feed your family. Over time, if you always just pick the prettiest colored rabbits or the cutest, or the sweetest, you will lose meat producing characteristics for instance--this often is what happens to backyard breeders.wh

What's the best easiest frugalist way and how do we select the right breeders?

You said that and we have this one kit that is so nice I was thinking of keeping because his personality lol

 

[eco2pia]

What's the best easiest frugalist way and how do we select the right breeders?

You said that and we have this one kit that is so nice I was thinking of keeping because his personality lol

There is no one best + easiest + frugalist way to do anything. That said, if your goal is best easiest and most cost effective, the answer is to start with the very very best stock available, which you can afford, write out a clear goal with a ranked list with as few must-haves as possible, and then choose in the order of the list. So if your priority looks like this (NOT a recommendation, just going off what you said above):

1. beautiful color
2. sweet temperament
3. meat for the freezer

you will pick the prettiest rabbit and give up the sweetest one, or the fastest growing one, and you will fill your available cage space with pretty rabbits. some may be nice, and some may be "meaty" but they will all be pretty.

Then when you get new kits you take the prettiest and you say "are any of these prettier that the ones I have?" and if yes you replace the less pretty rabbits, sending them to the freezer or selling them or whatever to open cages space for the new prettier rabbits.

If they are not as pretty, you eat or sell the new rabbits and try again.

If they all are about as pretty as what you have, you say "well, are they nicer, or meatier than the pretty rabbits I have?" and you replace any you have that are comparable prettiness with a kit that is both pretty AND nice or whatever.

This is why it is critical to understand what you actually want, because whatever you are focusing on is what you will end up with, and if you say you want fast growing meat producers that have heat tolerance, but you really think gray rabbits are the cutest and you can't bear the thought of culling a gray rabbit, you will end up with gray rabbits who may be scrawny or have low heat tolerance, and you will find it really hard to harvest them. This is very much a know yourself and know your goals situation, and be honest with yourself about what those goals are.

 

[eco2pia]

I really recommend a new breeder get to know their rabbits and their stock first. There is a learning curve. So my recommendation is to stick with the rabbits you have, learn about what you like and do not like, and if you make a mistake, eat it. It is not the fastest, or the easiest, or even necessarily the cheapest in the long run, but you will learn the most, and then you will be ready to evaluate what you really want to do next.

 

[AShelBunny]

I really recommend a new breeder get to know their rabbits and their stock first. There is a learning curve. So my recommendation is to stick with the rabbits you have, learn about what you like and do not like, and if you make a mistake, eat it. It is not the fastest, or the easiest, or even necessarily the cheapest in the long run, but you will learn the most, and then you will be ready to evaluate what you really want to do next.

What do you use for tracking app wise? Is there a free but effective easy to use app?

 

[eco2pia]

I use paper. Old school! and google calendar, spreadsheets, or docs as needed. But if you search on here you can find multiple threads detailing the pros and cons of various apps.

 

[olhippityhop]

What do you use for tracking app wise? Is there a free but effective easy to use app?

I use google sheets to track everything. It's easy to update from my phone.