Genetics question

[Pinkears1979]

My Sable doe has given birth to 7 lovely mini lops this morning. Annabelle is a dark sable, mainly black and then brown along the sides. The buck is a fawn colour. I went research crazy with genetics but then can never be 100% sure.

First question is what do you think their genetic coding would be?

And second , what are the likely baby outcomes? They look quite a mix! thanks

 

[MsTemeraire]

Being Siamese sable, Annabelle will be aaB_c(chl)cD_E_.
Your buck appears to be a Vienna marked fawn, with a lot of white Vienna markings. This would make him A_B_C_ddee and with the Vienna added, Vv.

As you can see from the _ underscores, information about what other recessives they may carry isn't known, so it's not easy to guess the offsprings' colour, but I would think Agouti (Chestnut in the USA) is the most likely. Some will have some white spotting from the Vienna gene.

Black is possible if the Fawn carries self, a. Opal and blue may appear if the Sable carries dilute. Depending on that the Fawn has on the C locus, you might get REW, sable, or sable agouti. You could potentially get Orange if Annabelle carries non-extension, e.

 

[Naelin]

Not an expert on that gene at all, but the buck also looks dutch banded to me, maybe? Do you happen to know the colours (better yet, have pictures) of their parents?
Could you also add a picture of Anabelle viewed from the side?

 

[MsTemeraire]

Not an expert on that gene at all, but the buck also looks dutch banded to me, maybe?

The Vienna gene can give white markings that resemble Dutch, but they're separate genes; the similarity occurs due to the way pigment cells migrate from the neural crest in the embryo. The gene is named after the first recorded Blue-eyed White breed, the White Vienna (pic below) which isn't recognised in the USA but is well known throughout Europe, first appearing in 1907.

It is a dominant white spotting gene with enormously variable expression - one copy of Vienna gives a coloured rabbit with white markings, anything from a few white hairs on one toe, or a white toenail, through to a white nose snip, a blaze, or a pattern that starts to look Dutch. Selective breeding can increase the amount of white, The eyes may also be blue, either fully or with sectoral heterochromia. Two copies of the Vienna gene produces a blue-eyed white rabbit - the markings have spread to cover the entire animal.

 

[Pinkears1979]

Not an expert on that gene at all, but the buck also looks dutch banded to me, maybe? Do you happen to know the colours (better yet, have pictures) of their parents?
Could you also add a picture of Anabelle viewed from the side?

Hi, here are some more images of Annabelle, she is quite a dark sable and changes colour when shedding. Her dad was the seal point in the photo and mum was a blue smoke.

 

[Pinkears1979]

The Vienna gene can give white markings that resemble Dutch, but they're separate genes; the similarity occurs due to the way pigment cells migrate from the neural crest in the embryo. The gene is named after the first recorded Blue-eyed White breed, the White Vienna (pic below) which isn't recognised in the USA but is well known throughout Europe, first appearing in 1907.

It is a dominant white spotting gene with enormously variable expression - one copy of Vienna gives a coloured rabbit with white markings, anything from a few white hairs on one toe, or a white toenail, through to a white nose snip, a blaze, or a pattern that starts to look Dutch. Selective breeding can increase the amount of white, The eyes may also be blue, either fully or with sectoral heterochromia. Two copies of the Vienna gene produces a blue-eyed white rabbit - the markings have spread to cover the entire animal.
View attachment 45112

Yes Ice Cream is a Vienna gene carrier i did also think he was broken but from the litter it looks more maybe just vienna although they are only a day old so hard to tell! His mum and dad are shown here. Mum was a harlequin so some interesting genes going on

 

[Pinkears1979]

These were the 4 babies from the previous litter. Dad was chocolate Tort I believe.

 

[judymac]

From the one photo, the fawn rabbit looks like he has a bluish eye:
That would not be expected from a broken pattern, which would have a brown (dense color D_) to grayish brown (dilute color dd) eye, so I'm going along with Vienna marked as well, which will often give one or two blue eyes to a Vienna marked rabbit.

I've found that nestbox newborn colors are often the best way to tell color. Chestnut rabbits are usually born black with white inner ears, while self black rabbits are black with dark inner ears. Chocolate agouti are born chocolate with white inner ears, self chocolate are chocolate with dark inner ears. Opals are born blue (mid gray) with white inner ears, self blues are blue with blue inner ears. Lynx are born light chocolate with white inner ears, self lilacs are the same shade but with lilac inner ears.

Spotting shows up at birth on the skin, whether harlequin, tricolor, Vienna marked or broken.

White, ermine (frosty), Himalayan (pointed white), fawn, orange, and tort all are born pink. Within a week the hair will start to emerge, and you'll be able to tell white-coated from yellowish coats. By a week to ten days the points will start to show, so you can tell a self tort from an agouti fawn. When the eyes open at ten days you can be sure between an ermine with gray eyes and a Himi with red eyes. Red rabbits will also be born pink, but will be a darker shade of pink.

I've not raised sables, but I understand the color will look a little 'off'. The black will not be quite as black. Sables go through a variety of color changes before settling down to their final sable color. @Alaska Satin has a great illustration of the color changes on the thread at https://rabbittalk.com/threads/chinchilla-rex-at-last.36724/#post-355913

 

[MsTemeraire]

These were the 4 babies from the previous litter. Dad was chocolate Tort I believe.

Okay, that helps! We can fill in some of the blanks on Annabelle's side. She carries chocolate, as one of those babies is choc tort - and I suspect her sire may have been Choc Point rather than Seal Point as his points are very light. She also carries non extension.

Her dam would have been Smoke Pearl rather than 'blue smoke' - Smoke Pearl is a sable with the dilution gene, so in effect a blue sable.

This means she is aaBbc(chl)_Dd_Ee.

It still means you should expect Agouti, but other colours are possible such as Opal, Orange, Fawn, Tort, Blue Tort (called Beige in the UK) and possibly self black and blue. Depending on what your buck has on his c-locus you may also get sable, smoke pearl, frosty point, blue frosty point, seal point, blue point.

 

[Pinkears1979]

 

[MsTemeraire]

Ooh, nice selection!
It's early days but I think you have what may be a smoke pearl, an orange/fawn, sable agouti, sable, tort, harlequin/magpie, and black. Those are just guesses on my part, and others may have better guesses. I'm fairly sure of the orange/fawn, and there's definitely a tort and a harlie/mag (unless it's a very white-marked Vienna).

 

[Pinkears1979]

My computer was playing up so it wouldnt let me type with the photos but they are the 7 babies. Please can you confirm my guesses?
1. Lynx - They have a white/pink tummy.
2. Not sure yet but i can see a pink arm so maybe not white.
3 Opal - They had a white/pink belly
4. Chocolate self, colour in ears and on belly.
5. Not sure?
6. Some sort of Harlequin there are two shades of colouring plus pink.
7. Blue self. I think that one had coloured tummy.

 

[MsTemeraire]

My computer was playing up so it wouldnt let me type with the photos but they are the 7 babies. Please can you confirm my guesses?
1. Lynx - They have a white/pink tummy.
2. Not sure yet but i can see a pink arm so maybe not white.
3 Opal - They had a white/pink belly
4. Chocolate self, colour in ears and on belly.
5. Not sure?
6. Some sort of Harlequin there are two shades of colouring plus pink.
7. Blue self. I think that one had coloured tummy.

1. This is the one I think maybe smoke pearl, as it's very pale and bluish. Lynx could be possible but it needs both parents to carry chocolate. If it has colour inside the ears it won't be an agouti based colour.
2. There's a slight orangey glow on the head which says orange/fawn to me.
3. This one's a self based colour as the ears are coloured inside. A light belly could indicate sable.
4. I reckon sable. These are born looking bluey/browny but not as obviously chocolate as chocolate is.
5. Orange/fawn/tort. Again, the orangey glow on the head.
6. I did think Harlie at first, but might be a Vienna with a lot of white. I can't work out the base colour yet.
7. I don't think that's blue, to me it looks possibly black, or could be dark sable.

 

[Pinkears1979]

1. This is the one I think maybe smoke pearl, as it's very pale and bluish. Lynx could be possible but it needs both parents to carry chocolate. If it has colour inside the ears it won't be an agouti based colour.
2. There's a slight orangey glow on the head which says orange/fawn to me.
3. This one's a self based colour as the ears are coloured inside. A light belly could indicate sable.
4. I reckon sable. These are born looking bluey/browny but not as obviously chocolate as chocolate is.
5. Orange/fawn/tort. Again, the orangey glow on the head.
6. I did think Harlie at first, but might be a Vienna with a lot of white. I can't work out the base colour yet.
7. I don't think that's blue, to me it looks possibly black, or could be dark sable.

Thank you! I find it so fascinating. I will post again in a few days when some more fur has come through!