Genetic white marks on harlequins. - need a plan

[Zass]

I was fairly warned of the likelyhood of this by the breeder, so it comes as no surprise to me.

All I really know is that it's heritable and that it's not vienna, dutch or broken color genetics. It seems to be pretty common to harlequins.

What I'm really surprised about is HOW heritable it is. :shock:

Almost every kit in the litter has white toes or feet, and one has it's white mark going almost all the way up the shoulder.

Of course, all the ones with the nicest markings have white. :roll:

I was told it would be alright for breeding magpies, since the black and white pattern hides the white marks, making them not DQ for it.

I can't help but think this gene's presence would make these hard-to-pin-down patterns even more challenging to work with... :?

I'd really like to come up with a way of eliminating it from the line BEFORE moving into magpie. :yes: But all I have is one Jap doe who has white toes, a magpie buck who may or may not carry the gene...and a whole bunch of kits...most of which have visual white marks. Trading out for new stock isn't an option at this time.
So...Can anyone help me come up with a plan???

Breed the magpie buck to one of my mutt does who's lines have never produced white marks to test him for it? If white marks show up, I'll at least know it's a visually dominant trait.

Perhaps my squirrel doe? White toes might be hard to spot on chins. She's out of an American line that sometimes threw non-extension...so she might also mess up the experiment by producing magpies first gen. He's a fairly big boy for a harlequin though, and I bet the two would make a nice meat cross at least.

I could use the silverfox doe...(she needs tested for non-extension anyway) OH yeah, and I'll be breeding him to a pair of my steel carrying self looking blue and lilac does before sending them up to Bikegurl. She's promised to share her results.

That should take care of knowing what the buck is made of.

Would it be better to try breeding my nicest marked kits(with the white) together, or back to magpie, and just hope for the best, or would it be better to cull all white and work with whatever kits are left?

I figure if I breed litter mates who do not have it expressed together. I might get lucky...

What do you guys think?

 

[ladysown]

if you want to eliminate the white you need to cut it out completely. I actually went to breeding magpies because of it. It's hard to eradicate.

BUT since you are stuck with what you have... Test breed the buck to know what you are working with. Keep the least marked of the kits that you can. Watch for white spots on the belly when they mature as well.

Keep your eye out for a dark red/black harlequin with little to no white foot gene in it's background. Add that one to your breeding pool and go on from there.

 

[alforddm]

That looks almost exactly like the surprise white boots I had on my kits that are 8 weeks old now. I have a feeling it would be VERY hard to completely eliminate it. My doe that threw the boots only has a very tiny pin prick of white on her lower lip. I didn't even notice it until the booted kits showed up.

If you continue to breed for less white, if will eventually (might) stop showing up, especially if you carefully examine each kit for hidden white on the nose, lower lips, and toes. However, it may also mean that you have bred for white suppression rather than eliminated the white marking mutation from your stock. If you just end up breeding for white suppression it could cause problems if new stock is introduced as they may not have the suppressor gene(s) allowing the white to pop out again.

You might try crossing your "solids" to a broken and keeping the ones that produce broken kits with the least white. White patterns tend to compound so, the ones that produce the smallest broken patterns are the ones that either 1) have no booted white pattern to add or 2) have the strongest white suppressors either of which should work for you. Keep in mind that KIT gene mutations, at least in horses (extension and kit are on the same chromosome in horses but not rabbits), express more on red bases so if you're comparing a broken harlequin and a broken black expect the harlequin to have more white.

You could alternatively simply start breeding your magpies and select for the best pattern, completely ignoring the white. I really don't have much experience with magpie or harlequin so I'm not sure how much a booted white might affect the pattern.

 

[Zass]

Check this one out! It's posing as a VM. :lol:

White on the nose and all the way up the shoulder.

These are not booted broken...
I was told the white will show up all the same places dutch marks do.

Is it on the same locus???

What would happen if I bred two white marks together?

 

[alforddm]

Check this one out! It's posing as a VM. :lol:

White on the nose and all the way up the shoulder.

These are not booted broken...
I was told the white will show up all the same places dutch marks do.

Is it on the same locus???

What would happen if I bred two white marks together?

I love it! You might try breeding two of them and seeing what you get? I would love to breed one of my booted kits back to the doe but I'm still trying to work out cage space...

 

[ladysown]

you'd get more white marks, most likely some dutch type markings. You'd also more firmly set the white gene in your lines.

if you could breed that look into a small breed rabbits...they'd sell really well.

 

[Celice]

if all the kits have the little white then I would say both doe and buck have it. But you'd have to test it. Personally I like the white on them and dutch marked Harlys would be cute! good pelts and pet buns.

Try the magpie with your squirrel doe you may get blue magpie.

 

[Zass]

you'd get more white marks, most likely some dutch type markings. You'd also more firmly set the white gene in your lines.

if you could breed that look into a small breed rabbits...they'd sell really well.

I certainly wouldn't KEEP the kits.
I'm just curious as to the relation of the genes to other genes that cause dutch marks.

There are already other breeders who have harli dutch.


My daughter really wants the normal kind of harlequins she can show. I just have to keep my curiosity in check.

 

[Susie570]

I keep hearing about 'japanese' harlequin. What's the difference? It seems like they might be darker, maybe no white? :shrug:

 

[Schipperkesue]

Is this an issue in ALL Harlequins? If not, would it be easier to look for a line without white markings? I know it means starting fresh, but then you can begin to work on something other than elimination of white.

Then on top of this, if you introduce Magpie, and it is impossible to see the white with the magpie pattern would you be introducing white back in to the rabbits you have worked so hard to remove it from?

Your pictures show such nice faces...

 

[Zass]

The plan was to actually work with magpies.
But it seems to me that these white marks can harm the patterns and faces on my magpies just as much.. Especially if the magpie buck also has them and crossing them together intensifies the white.

Since magpie is created with chinchilla, which is a recessive, if I was able to get a white mark free line of japs who carry cchd, I could cross them together to start a white mark free line of magpies. Theoretically.


I'm not bringing in any stock at this time...mainly because I really like the personalities/temperaments, the mothering, and the potential for decent marking I have..



I was going to see if I could cement those traits into my own line before playing around with new blood.

If someone offers me a really nice jap doe with no white marks, I'd certainly take her. :mrgreen:

But actually...my "out crossing" plan was to get more rabbits from the same breeder who sold me these. :lol: She told me strait up that harlequin lines were best kept close, since out crossing introduces modifiers that can wreak the markings.

Something tells me, if I want to be able to seriously work with the breed, I'll need to figure these marks out and have an elimination plan in place.

Susie570 » Mon May 11, 2015 8:17 am
I keep hearing about 'japanese' harlequin. What's the difference? It seems like they might be darker, maybe no white? :shrug:

Japanese is the orange and black coloration. Although it can be made dilute or chocolate (or both) so that you can have blue, chocolate, or lilac japs.

My japs are washed out because I bred to magpie...but a good one would have more rufus than this, and yes...no random white

 

[Schipperkesue]

The difficult challenges are the most satisfying to solve!

 

[Susie570]

Ok, got it... I think....
There are two varieties of harlequin color combos, Japanese (orange and black/blue/chocolate/lilac - as little white as possible and preferably none), and Magpie (black/blue/chocolate/lilac and white. The harlie markings can also be displayed as 'brindle' in either color combo.

Harlies should be an agouti coat (and with flyback fur is preferable), self harlies tend to produce 'Torted Harlies'.... (eyes are starting to cross now) I guess these buns have the tort facial markings instead of the nice clean division of color?

If trying to produce japanese harlies without white, I would think you would want to stay away from magpie, since they DO have white?? :shrug:

 

[Zass]

The harlie markings can also be displayed as 'brindle' in either color combo.
If trying to produce japanese harlies without white, I would think you would want to stay away from magpie, since they DO have white?? :shrug:

Brindled is highly undesirable in the harlequin breed.

The white marks I'm talking about are not caused by the chinchilla gene that causes the white on magpie. The problem is that the magpie white will hide this type of genetic white I'm seeing. But it can still mess up the marks.

So far as I can tell the problematic gene is either dutch du or a new, non-named white marking gene.

In theory, I could get better magpies if I could wipe the white out of the line, and I can get magpie from two clean japs, since chinchilla is recessive.

Like this:

Buck A_ B_ cchd cchd D_ ee

Doe A_ B_ CC D_ ee

Kits A_ B C cchd D_ ee All the kits carry one invisible copy of cchd, and when paired up or bred back to the magpie buck they will produce magpie offspring.

I'm thinking I'll be saving the two doelings with the best marks to breed back to him. And if I have a male/female pair without any white I'll save those to breed together too.

 

[Susie570]

Thanks This is all helpful to me (not like I'll actually REMEMBER it all, but hey it's a start) since I am breeding harlie mini lops, or at least I intend to try.

The harlie doe I purchased might be considered to be more 'brindled' and she does have a tiny bit of white on her... but I guess I'll just have to see how it works out. I need to remember that I need to choose a non-e buck for my breeding program.

 

[Zass]

Most of my litter is female, and they are all SWEET little rabbits. I can't put my hand in the pen without several of them charging over to cuddle and groom my hands. For the last few days, my doe Sinphonia has pushed a few kits out of the way to do a bunny flop under my hand. :shock:
In hopes of petting, and especially an ear stroking.

She was nice and easygoing to begin with, but I cooled her ears for her when it was REALLY hot a few days ago, and she's been acting kinda lovestruck since. :in_love:

Between her and Sushi, I'm going to have to spend all my time in the rabbitry cuddling things.

Sorry agouti-fox, but I think the harlis are probably going to win my cage space due to their super good tempers.

__________ Wed May 13, 2015 3:10 pm __________

My hand is all scratched up from sexing the agouti-fox mutts.

I'll be offering some of this batch up for sale unpedigreed, as pets or brood stock for backyard meat setups. They will not grow as well as the agouti fox or be quite as meaty, but at least they will be pleasant to keep!!!

 

[Susie570]

awww.... kissy kissy face

 

[twr]

I keep hearing about 'japanese' harlequin. What's the difference?

This is a confusing situation which originates in a name change related to WWII. Originally the breed was called Japanese everywhere. Post WWII the breed was known as Harlequin in some countries (eg UK, US) but still known as Japanese in others. So the two names mean the same thing but people sometimes use them both together to be sure they are understood.

I was told the white will show up all the same places dutch marks do. Is it on the same locus???

No way to tell. Similarity of pattern does suggest that the genes may be involved in the same biological pathway, but no more than that. Remember that du and v are on different locii but dudu and Vv can make similar patterns.

White on the nose and all the way up the shoulder.

I currently have a suspicion that clarity (i.e. solid black marks rather than brindling) is directly caused by unexpressed white spotting modifiers i.e.:
too few modifiers=brindled
too many modifiers=clear markings but visible white spotting
just right=clear markings and little or no visible spotting
... so I'm interested to see how this turns out. In particular if a "just right" combination is heterozygous for some modifiers it won't breed true. There'll always be a mixture of brindled, white-spotted and "just right" kits.

 

[Zass]

I currently have a suspicion that clarity (i.e. solid black marks rather than brindling) is directly caused by unexpressed white spotting modifiers i.e.:
too few modifiers=brindled
too many modifiers=clear markings but visible white spotting
just right=clear markings and little or no visible spotting
... so I'm interested to see how this turns out. In particular if a "just right" combination is heterozygous for some modifiers it won't breed true. There'll always be a mixture of brindled, white-spotted and "just right" kits.

I think you might be on to something. It's not too far fetched to believe that the presence of white can affect the pattern.

Doesn't the broken patten do some strange things to harli marks as well?
Sometimes producing a spotted pattern, which I think, is what is considered desirable in tri colors?

(This one isn't a great example, but it's what I had)

 

[TF3]

They are so pretty! Not like my brindled kits
Do they not have agouti white markings with the harle?
I understood it shows best on agouti?
Or is it that the white is elsewhere more like a Tri?