Genetic white marks on harlequins. - need a plan

[Zass]

They are so pretty! Not like my brindled kits
Do they not have agouti white markings with the harle?
I understood it shows best on agouti?
Or is it that the white is elsewhere more like a Tri?

They can have agouti white marks, but a harli looks most striking when the agouti white is covered up as much as possible with rufus (and I strongly suspect wideband, despite that fact that it isn't mentioned on genotype lists) to create a rabbit that appears to be just black and orange. This isn't often mentioned, but someone can look at a rabbit and tell if they have those traits.

It's hard to describe, since agouti based harlis do not really look like what people imagine as an agouti, just like a chinchilla based magpie doesn't look like a chin. My harlis are all agouti based, except that little torted-fawn-tri colored mutt pictured above, which is a genetic self.

As you guessed, the agouti white marks are not the concern, it's stray marks like white blazes or white feet that cause the rabbit to DQ.

 

[aussiegirl]

Check this one out! It's posing as a VM. :lol:

White on the nose and all the way up the shoulder.

These are not booted broken...
I was told the white will show up all the same places dutch marks do.

Is it on the same locus???

What would happen if I bred two white marks together?

Vienna Gene: Expressed as "V" or "v". The gene that produces BEW rabbits.
VM: Vienna Marked or "sports". A rabbit that carries the gene and shows it.
VC: Vienna Carrier. A rabbit that carries the gene, but does not show it.

Here is some more information regarding the 'Vienna Gene' NOT the actual breed. This gene is also responsible for BEW 'blue eyed white' in rabbits.

http://www.miniaturelops.com/bewgenetics.htm
http://northernbreeze.weebly.com/bew-genetics.html

 

[Zass]

Thanks for the info on vienna aussiegirl.

I'm 99.99% positive the gene that causes these particular white marks in the harlequin breed is not vienna.
I'll know for sure when I breed two of the kits together.

__________ Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:28 pm __________

Some new evidence! My magpie buck threw at least one kit with a pure white foot to my squirrel doe, daisy.

Let me mention now, I've NEVER gotten a random white mark with my mutts. Never ever ever with many litters for years.

It seems obvious that both of my harlequins carry this white-mark-gene.

And.. crossing white marked to to white marked didn't really do anything to increase the white, I think.
It might have produced more offspring with expressed white in the harlequin litter.
(Certainly no BEW)

 

[FourRingCircus]

I'll be offering some of this batch up for sale unpedigreed, as pets or brood stock for backyard meat setups. They will not grow as well as the agouti fox or be quite as meaty, but at least they will be pleasant to keep!!!

Oh how I wish I lived closer! I have some kits coming up that would be great to try with yours! They are NZW/mix - I have no idea what the buck was but he threw out some colorful kits! chestnuts (I think? still learning) with subtle harlequin markings (from what I read on another thread), a couple halequins, and some mostly whites with spots (I have no idea color/gene terminology... obviously )... they had the butterfly markings on their noses which was cute. It would be neat to see what colors and patterns would come from the pairings... And having young children right now, the temperament is such a BIG part of making rabbits fun for them. They love the ones that actually will sit still and let them pet them (rather than booking it to the back of the cage).

 

[Zass]

I'll be offering some of this batch up for sale unpedigreed, as pets or brood stock for backyard meat setups. They will not grow as well as the agouti fox or be quite as meaty, but at least they will be pleasant to keep!!!

Oh how I wish I lived closer! I have some kits coming up that would be great to try with yours! They are NZW/mix - I have no idea what the buck was but he threw out some colorful kits! chestnuts (I think? still learning) with subtle harlequin markings (from what I read on another thread), a couple halequins, and some mostly whites with spots (I have no idea color/gene terminology... obviously )... they had the butterfly markings on their noses which was cute. It would be neat to see what colors and patterns would come from the pairings... And having young children right now, the temperament is such a BIG part of making rabbits fun for them. They love the ones that actually will sit still and let them pet them (rather than booking it to the back of the cage).

These harlis are the type that spill out of their cage when you open the door, and some are the hand-grooming type even at 9-10 weeks old.

It seems to be the same kind of calm submissive (but not at all fearful!! It's the opposite, very outgoing, just not dominant.) personality that Mucky and Sushi have.

I don't have enough experience with the breed to determine any kind of generalized temper, but I REALLY love the lines I got.

Easy to breed, and great mothering from the get-go on the only doe I have. Lets hope the trend continues with her daughters.

I'd be happy to offer an RT discount... if only you know someone who'd make the trip.

 

[TF3]

OK, coming back to this as I try and learn more.
You are familiar with my harle FG cross kits... which lack the nice sharp marking on yours~ mine are more brindled, and I am going to try son back to mom, and possibly to sister to try and see if I can get ejej, and sharper marks as a result.
ONE of the 7 harle kits had a clear white mark on his nose.
None of my 3 growouts have ANY white aside from very mild agouti markings.

But it is interesting..

I currently have a suspicion that clarity (i.e. solid black marks rather than brindling) is directly caused by unexpressed white spotting modifiers i.e.:
too few modifiers=brindled
too many modifiers=clear markings but visible white spotting
just right=clear markings and little or no visible spotting
... so I'm interested to see how this turns out. In particular if a "just right" combination is heterozygous for some modifiers it won't breed true. There'll always be a mixture of brindled, white-spotted and "just right" kits.

If I can double up the ej to try and reduce brindling, the lack of apparent white could keep them sharpness from improving....
Do you think yours are ejej?

(and I blame you entirely, Zass, for encouraging my giant tiger bunny project! :lol: )

 

[Zass]

But it is interesting..

I currently have a suspicion that clarity (i.e. solid black marks rather than brindling) is directly caused by unexpressed white spotting modifiers i.e.:
too few modifiers=brindled
too many modifiers=clear markings but visible white spotting
just right=clear markings and little or no visible spotting
... so I'm interested to see how this turns out. In particular if a "just right" combination is heterozygous for some modifiers it won't breed true. There'll always be a mixture of brindled, white-spotted and "just right" kits.

If I can double up the ej to try and reduce brindling, the lack of apparent white could keep them sharpness from improving....
Do you think yours are ejej?

(and I blame you entirely, Zass, for encouraging my giant tiger bunny project! :lol: )

I do believe mine are ejej. Both parents have three generation pedigrees from respectable breeders. Which means the kits are from lines with expressed ej having been bred together for at least 4 generations.
I was hoping my squirrel doe had e and could express ej, but it doesn't seem to be the case. She has 9 harlequinized chinchilla and chocolate chinchillas kits.

Sushi would have e since his father was orange...maybe I'll test breed him to a doeling or two when they come of age...hardy conclusive, but worth a shot.

__________ Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:41 pm __________

Just checked Daisy's 1/2 harlequin kits. I believe all nine are harli marked (three have split faces with alternating ears!!! Too bad they are mutts :roll: ) Only one has an obvious white marking at this time.

That would make them most likely:
A_ B_cchd_ Dd Eej for the harlequinized black chinchillas
or
A_ bb cchd _ D_ Eej for the harlequinized chocolate chinchillas

I'd post a picture, if I could afford a camera at this time. It's too bad. For those who are unfamiliar with genotypes, they look like chinchillas or chocolate chins with harli markings mixed in. They have none of the white of a magpie.

They all carry dilute, since Daisy has only that to give, but I'm going to go ahead and consider Mystery a non-carrier since he's produced 27 kits now with expressed dilute does, and not one dilute kit was produced. This is rather confounding, since his pedigree displays a blue magpie parent. :? I hate anything that might throw a pedigree's accuracy into question. :wall:

I think Mystery's genotype is most likely a very strait forward:
AA Bb cchdcchd DD ejej Based on the contents of 4 litters with me, and 36 kits with a purebred and mutt does..

I just realized the guy has given me 9 kits in each litter, despite only being good for one cover. :lol:

__________ Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:43 pm __________

Here is my photo evidence that the magpie buck throws white marks too.
Since this mutt kit couldn't have gotten it from the mother. Also evidence that only one copy of the random white mark gene is needed to create it. (as suspected)

Interestingly, some kits from the purebred harlequin pair(who both carry the gene) have no white at all, and thankfully, the only buckling in the litter was one of them.

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

there is harli dutch. I wonder if perhaps things may be connected there and this is perhaps what comes up when those lines meet just right? though I also think the white affect thing sounds very plausible, balancing right between no white and visible white.