Genes for blue eyes and Vienna genes

[squidpop]

My Jersey Wooly has a white nose which I decided meant she probably just had a spotting gene or mismark gene and not the Vienna gene because her parents don't have Vienna markings- one parent was a rew and the other had a 3 generation pedigree and no BEW listed on the pedigree. But she had babies to a Black sire with brown eyes and some of the babies came out with dark blue eyes (As shown in the picture below).

My question is - do you think the blue eyes in the babies mean she carries the BEW gene and could be bred to a BEW rabbit and throw some BEW babies?
Or is it more likely that she carries another gene for blue grey eyes that isn't really linked to Vienna BEW genes?

 

[skysthelimit]

Blue grey eyes could be self chin, but the location and shape of that mark, looks very much like the vienna gene. If it had been a random patch of white or on the toes, then I would think differently.

 

[Dood]

The blue eyed black kit looks like he carries the chinchilla gene to me. I have a black Vienna marked ND house bunny and her blue eyes are a clearer blue, not as bright as seen on BEW but defiantly brighter than those posted above, and I also breed Am Chin x NZ and get a few black self chins who look just like your buns.

Vienna is dominant so I would also expect at least a few of the kits to have white somewhere, either booted, blazed or snipped like the doe, even with only the one gene.

 

[Disney]

Yup, it's the vienna gene. It rarely shows itself on chestnuts and blacks with a lot of solid color and less white, but it does happen.
You'll know for sure when you breed these kits to a bew and get bews out of them.
+ the white snip and blaze is proof of the vienna gene's presence, the chinchilla gene has no white marks.

The chinchilla gene, from what i know.. would preferably show blue eyes on diluted chinchillas like blue solids who have light brown / greyish eyes. It's very unlikely for the chin gene to create this on a black rabbbit while the vienna gene has a hard time putting blue eyes on a black, how would the chin gene be able to pull that off + throw white markings which is unheard of.

No, Vienna for sure, probably carried by the Rew.

 

[Dood]

I have to disagree with Disney.

The black kit doesnt have any white, and his mother, with the white, doesn't have blueish eyes. Sometimes white is just a mis-mark and not broken or vienna. Vienna typically gives more white than just a snip on the nose and even when the rabbit is totally black, the eyes are much more vivid colour.

My blue (dilute 'dd') chins have grey eyes as adults and pale blue eyes as kits. I have posted a picture (albeit not a very good one) of regular (not blue) chinchilla kits and they have similar eye colour to your black and they do darken with age. A blue chin would have even lighter eyes and grey eyes as an adult

But you will never know for sure unless you test breed to a BEW and actually get a BEW or a kit with alot more white on it. Or test breed to a REW and see if you get chinchillas

 

[Bad Habit]

Check for white toes on the blue eyed baby.

Vienna can be carried without being visible, so it is plausable that the blue eyes are the only way that particular rabbit shows the vienna gene. I think the doe is vienna, that's a classic marking for vienna, and it can travel through generations without showing itself at all. That is why many people hate the gene. I got an excellent buck for free because his mother is a vienna marked doe.

That's just my 2 cents.

 

[skysthelimit]

Chin gene reeks havoc on other colors. It does produce blue/gray eyes, most of my chins have blue/gray eyes, or light gray eyes, which is permissible in Rex. I also had a few white toes on my black and otter litter, and I dare anyone to prove there is any vienna in these lines. Sometimes a mismark is just a mismark. White does not always mean vienna, but that nose is a classic vienna marking. I sure would like to see the results of a test breeding.

 

[Disney]

I have to disagree with Disney.

The black kit doesnt have any white, and his mother, with the white, doesn't have blueish eyes. Sometimes white is just a mis-mark and not broken or vienna. Vienna typically gives more white than just a snip on the nose and even when the rabbit is totally black, the eyes are much more vivid colour.

My blue (dilute 'dd') chins have grey eyes as adults and pale blue eyes as kits. I have posted a picture (albeit not a very good one) of regular (not blue) chinchilla kits and they have similar eye colour to your black and they do darken with age. A blue chin would have even lighter eyes and grey eyes as an adult

But you will never know for sure unless you test breed to a BEW and actually get a BEW or a kit with alot more white on it. Or test breed to a REW and see if you get chinchillas

We haven't seen the other side of the the black kit, he could have white markings we don't know about, and even if he doesn't have any, he still could be vienna like the black rex picture you posted.

I've had kits with 5% white markings who are born out of a Bew, i think the amount of white is controlled by invisible modifiers who differs from VM's to VM's. Some give kits with lots of white and others with less.

This kit for example, he is out of a Bew and none of the 10 kits had blue eyes, only 1 had a blue snip in his eyes.. a very interesting and playful gene.

You mentioned the brown eyes of the mother, most black vm's have brown eyes, especially if they have less white markings like she does. So she looks as a common VM. Her kit with the fullblue eyes is a rare jewel i think, i wish i had a solid with blue eyes like him.

I thought the chinchilla light gene would create blue eyes, not the dark chinchilla gene who consists more eumelanin than the other.
Eumelanin is in my believe a factor who correlates the coat with the eye color.

 

[squidpop]

The black baby with the blue eyes does have white toes across one foot. Also, there where two babies with white markings but their eyes where brownish- here are some pictures.

 

[Dood]

Ahhh, I was assuming the black didnt have any white, this changes things and I agree that it is a vienna mark and they are carriers, although I dont know if the eyes will stay that dusty blue colour or change.

They dont seem bright enough to me and it could be he is a self chin as well as a vienna carrier.

 

[skysthelimit]

Ohh, self chin and vienna together? This is why I don't break color rules.

 

[ladysown]

my experience with BEW and the vienna gene....

Holland lop buck with one BEW great great grandparent.

Perfectly marked kits...with a white snip.
Perfectly typed kits with....blue eyes.

ARGH!!! What a frustrating gene!!

I nix it where ever I can as it's just SO frustrating..though they do make for funky flashy kits that sell for the pet market...

 

[squidpop]

For me flashy for the pet market will be a bonus, but I really want to eventually get a typey line of blue eyed whites for show- and I'm not going to breed any other colors and only focus on the blue eyed white.

 

[skysthelimit]

Now you have a great experiment. Breed this group closely and see what you get.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Good Luck I hope you do have the BEW gene there, however it may also be the Dutch gene. Even with a full Dutch parent the kits can display very very little of the white.

 

[Bad Habit]

Good Luck I hope you do have the BEW gene there, however it may also be the Dutch gene. Even with a full Dutch parent the kits can display very very little of the white.

I don't think dutch would cause blue eyes though?

 

[Jack]

Vienna gene is pretty well explored,
dutch doesn't cause BEW,
BUT
Half Vienna will cause weird DUTCH LIKE patterns (note, these ARE NOT dutch marked)

 

[Bad Habit]

Vienna gene is pretty well explored,
dutch doesn't cause BEW,
BUT
Half Vienna will cause weird DUTCH LIKE patterns (note, these ARE NOT dutch marked)

One vienna gene CAN cause dutch like patterns. It can also cause blazes, stars, snips, ear tipping, white toes, white toe nails or nothing visible at all.

 

[JessicaR]

Just because I miss my lionheads here is a picture of some of my vienna marked babies! Mom is the broken blue, dad was a BEW. You can see the different amounts of white the kits had

 

[Bad Habit]

OH MY GOODNESS!!! I love that little black vienna in the very back.