First, what color is mom?

[Caldhara]

I was told she was a smoke pearl chin but comparing pictures makes me skeptical. Her dam is also called this and is the same color and according to the ped is out of an opal and black silver tip steel. Doe in questions sire is a black gold tip steel out of two gold tip steels. There is chestnut agouti and another ancestor listed as smoke pearl. Her litter is by a black whose sire is black gold tip steel out of two gold tip steels and dam is a REW out of a black and REW. There is tort back there too. What color is mom? She has a white belly, dark under color. And what are the babies? I know the two blacks and two black gold tip steels but the other two I'm not sure. I was told the lighter one is sable chin. I'll add more pics in comments. <br /><br /> __________ Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:43 pm __________ <br /><br /> Babies

 

[Susie570]

Mom's coat looks like it has agouti banding, which I was just told today, means not chin. Of course I could be wrong. So far, I've been wrong every time I've tried to guess color. I think they're out to get me and keep changing the color rules. lol

 

[Celice]

I'm not seeing much black on her for a chinchilla. She could be a really dark Blue Chinchilla Sable aka Sable Squirrel.

 

[Dood]

I see .....

A-locus = Agouti
B-locus = Black
C-locus = Sable
D-locus = Not dilute
E-locus = Steel

Which would make Her a "steel sable agouti" = A_ B_ cchl_ D_ Es_

I think the browner kit is the same colour as mum and the chinchilla kit is the same but not a steel = A_ B_ cchl D_ E_

 

[alforddm]

Mom's coat looks like it has agouti banding, which I was just told today, means not chin.

Whoever told you this was wrong. Chins DO have agouti banding. Chin removes the yellow/red pigment (pheomelanin) from the coat not the bands.

 

[Susie570]

Like this?

 

[Sagebrush]

Yep

 

[Caldhara]

Thing is, mom has no brown in her fur. She is sun burned, tips of ears and molting coat is tinted but new coat is silvery and blueish. Baby looks more like a sable steel? <br /><br /> __________ Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:27 am __________ <br /><br /> Also, there don't seem to be any bands on the lighter one, just ticking... is it still a chin?

 

[Celice]

I think Dood is right. Now that I see these kit pictures I would say Steel Sable Agouti.

Steel can really muck things up with coat color. so you can get an agouti without a band.

here is a Steel sable agouti kit I had:

 

[Zass]

Whoever told you this was wrong. Chins DO have agouti banding. Chin removes the yellow/red pigment (pheomelanin) from the coat not the bands.

No, she wasn't given the wrong info, it was just a misunderstanding.
I saw the post and had been meaning to clear that up, but lost track of it somewhere..

Alforddm is right, chinchilla ARE genetically agouti rabbits, and they have banding. The simply lack the yellow/brown tones that an agouti would have.

Chinchilla can be black, blue(squirrel) chocolate, or lilac based. Just as agouti can be chestnut, opal chocolate agouti(amber in rex) or lynx.

 

[Dood]

:yeahthat:

Technically "chinchilla the colour" must have ring pattern but chinchilla the gene does not - sallanders show the chinchilla gene but lack ring pattern because they are self based.

Only agouti chinchillas (AKA agouti dark shaded) have bands - self chin's do not and steel agouti chins can have minimal banding and look nearly self

 

[Caldhara]

So are both kits affected by the steel gene? Because the lighter one has no banding and such a dark under color is it also a steel? The lighter one has agouti points but the darker one doesn't, so what makes the darker one an agouti too? And mom has no brown, how can she also be sable but not appear so? I'm just getting back into Mini Lops after many years off but even back then I never had any of the shaded colors. Also I'm getting reaquainted with the banding and telling the difference!

 

[Zass]

:yeahthat:

Technically "chinchilla the colour" must have ring pattern but chinchilla the gene does not - sallanders show the chinchilla gene but lack ring pattern because they are self based.

Only agouti chinchillas (AKA agouti dark shaded) have bands - self chin's do not and steel agouti chins can have minimal banding and look nearly self

I've come to the conclusion that steel anything can look all-the-way self if it feels like it.

Caldhara, you might want to search some of our older posts on the amount of variation possible with steel.

They pretty much swing from very lightly affected, to all-the-way self looking depending on modifiers and the other genes a rabbit carries.

 

[Caldhara]

Ok I just read your post Dood, so the lighter one is a sable steel agouti chin? with no banding? and the darker one is sable steel agouti self? with no banding?

__________ Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:38 pm __________

I've come to the conclusion that steel anything can look all-the-way self if it feels like it.

I think the two gold tip steels in the litter are going to be patchy, more gold tip up near the head...maybe it will come in as it gets older?

I never knew any of this about the color variation!! <br /><br /> __________ Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:40 pm __________ <br /><br /> I did read about the variation in other posts. I think what I'm most curious about is what colors are possible based on the color in the pedigree. I see sable in the background so it's interesting to see where it pops up!

 

[Dood]

This is what I said about your rabbits

Which would make Her a "steel sable agouti" = A_ B_ cchl_ D_ Es_

I think the browner kit is the same colour as mum and the chinchilla kit is the same but not a steel = A_ B_ cchl D_ E_

Remember they are kits and don't have mature coats yet.

Agouti sables have crappy ring colour, and in my experience so do agouti from California crosses and just judging by pictures on Google it looks like a lot of Satin breeds agouti have "poor" ring colour compared to other breeds - there are "modifiers" that effect all of these traits

 

[Caldhara]

This is what I said about your rabbits

Which would make Her a "steel sable agouti" = A_ B_ cchl_ D_ Es_

I think the browner kit is the same colour as mum and the chinchilla kit is the same but not a steel = A_ B_ cchl D_ E_

Remember they are kits and don't have mature coats yet.

Agouti sables have crappy ring colour, and in my experience so do agouti from California crosses and just judging by pictures on Google it looks like a lot of Satin breeds agouti have "poor" ring colour compared to other breeds - there are "modifiers" that effect all of these traits

I hear ya on this but I guess when I look at the two they are completely different colors. Sable doesn't seem dominant or even there because she appears blue. Mom has a white belly and kit has a brown one. plus he is all brown. There is Opal back there so is blue possible?

I also understand they are young. I asked the breeder if that was what she looked like as a kit but he said no. It will be interesting to see them mature

 

[rabbitdiva]

I am curious how we have concluded that the "brown" baby is the same color as the mom? Based on phenotype it is obviously a different color. Mom has blue undercolor and silver tips, baby has black undercolor and golden tips. How is that the same?

 

[cmfarm]

Is cute a color? :yes:

 

[ladysown]

I saw the kits and thought...sable chins....

I can see the steel.

She's a nice rabbit anyways.

 

[Zass]

Could we get a pic of Mom's belly?