Experimental Rabbitry Questions

[sinthome]

Hi folks, first post.

I am trying to incorporate the following different strains of thought into my proposed rabbitry and am interested in any feedback:

1) I have been reading about various traditional/alternative rabbitry designs that utilize burrows and surface ground pens or wire hutches (sources mostly available on the FAO website, see their Raising Rabbits pdf, and various articles published by the research station in Viterbo, Italy and also some studies from North Vietnam).

2) Another idea that I find appealing is coupling the rabbitry with a passive solar greenhouse, as popularized in solar greenhouse books of the 60s-70s. In particular, Mike Oehler's book The Earth-Sheltered Solar Greenhouse provides some enthusiastic support for this idea, albeit still theoretical, and the dated and hard to find books of James Dekorne (haven't actually read them, but he apparently does this with some success).

3) Getting off pelleted feed, using Salatin-style mobile grow-out pens and keeping rabbits together in small, controlled-breeding "colonies", all of which is recently discussed in the Urban Rabbit Project e-books.

The first key to the design of an integrated greenhouse is the earth-sheltered part and keeping the rabbits below grade for a stabilized year-round burrow temperature. The second key, in my opinion and something that Oehler does not discuss, is allowing outside access for better sunlight and ventilation. Outdoor access is incorporated in the FAO research papers, but I think a lot of their lackluster performance is due to poor diet (rather than hygiene) and the cramped nature of the wire hutch/burrows used. For this reason, I want to use feeds that are only minimally processed and sourced from my own land (willow and other tree cuttings, grass, hay, kitchen and garden waste, etc),as outlined in the Urban Rabbit Project books, and give the rabbits greater outdoor access than a small wire cage. The last consideration is sociality, which I think is important for overall health and quality of life. I do not like the full "colony" approach that allows for the self-creation of burrows and warren structure with breeding bucks included, but also regard the isolation approach to be less than ideal, as rabbits are a social animal and their isolation causes boredom, excessive gnawing and scratching and other neurotic behaviors. Instead of these two options, a good compromise seems to be to keep small groups of breeding does, bred in a controlled way to produce litters at the same time. This allows for some minimum of social behavior, if not a full "colony". At time of weening, the litters will be moved to mobile grow-out pens until they make slaughter weight.

Here are some details of my burrow design idea: 2-4 does will be kept in 2 ft deep, 32 sg ft burrows (4' x 8') underneath the walkway of my earth-sheltered solar greenhouse. Temperature will be passively maintained at 55-65 deg F, year-round. There will be a total of 4-5 burrows and each will connect with two pipe tunnels to fenced-in outdoor runs for an additional 32 sq ft, per group. Each burrow will have two pipes to improve access and reduce "bullying". The pipes will be designed to create a passive venting of outside air into the burrow and up into the greenhouse, pulling in fresh air and supplying CO2 into the greenhouse.

The breeder pens will be connected to the burrows by pipe tunnels and will therefore not be mobile. They will be sheltered from direct sunlight and rain and will have a partition to limit overgrazing and allow for times of grass recovery.

I have found a lot of discrepancies between the conventional rabbit books (Storey Press, for example) versus what the scientific research shows about the optimum breeding/living conditions for rabbits (see the FAO documents) and think that the case for both pellet feed and wire cages to be overly exaggerated. That said, I have zero direct experience with rabbit keeping at this point (I do keep a lot of other livestock animals). I plan on getting a couple does this spring and starting with wire hutches connected to a pipe, just to see how well they acclimate to moving through artificial tunnels.

One question that might help me out in my experiments is: What is the best diameter pipe to use and what material? Regarding material, I have no idea if a common PVC or ABS plastic drain pipe is too slippery, especially if it is sloped.

 

[Susie570]

Would you have easy access to the underground burrows to check on kits and such? I would think that would be critical to any rabbitry.

 

[MaggieJ]

Welcome to RabbitTalk, Sinthome! :welcome:

This is a very ambitious project. Pardon my asking, but do you have prior experience with raising rabbits?

 

[Marinea]

Welcome to RT, Sinthome!

What you are describing sounds very interesting. There is an old post here from a member in Texas who has something similar, utilizing insulated underground man-made coolers connected by pipes to outside area. I can't find the old post, but I am sure someone smarter than I am will link it. It might give you some ideas. (EDIT: try this post: paradox-s-bunny-caves-for-miss-m-t15325.html )

I do foresee a few issues you may have to prepare for: first, you having easy access to the underground birthing area is essential. You need to be able to clean any soiled nests, remove any dead kits, etc, before problems occur.

I also see a potential problem with the outside/inside access. Unless it is very, very controlled, I see a possible problem with small predators- like rats, minks, weasels, cats, etc.

Another issue I would be concerned about is the does having a limited, static outside area to graze on. I would be concerned about things like fleas, cocci, and pasturella. If one of those popped up and treatments were needed, now you have no outdoor area for your does, and have basically reduced their colony space by half.

One more note: I feed a great deal from my garden. In fact, there are a few items I grow solely for my rabbits. But, I also feed pellets. A non-pellet diet is possible, but does require a lot of research and tweaking, especially in winter months when fresh garden greens can be sparse, even with a greenhouse.

I would be very interested in reading more about this project as you progress.

 

[Dood]

:yeahthat: I also don't like burrows because they collapse and flood (at least in my climate)

Parasites are a huge problem in colonies and with rabbits that have contact with the ground. Kit mortality is often very high in these set ups regardless of nutrition. It sounds like you want to go more organic and wouldn't be willing to medicate the rabbits to minimize losses due to parasites.

Pipe diameter depends on the adult size of your rabbits - a medium sized 6 pound Florida White could easily hop through a 6" pipe but an 11 pound New Zealand would need at least 10" pipe but possibly bigger to comfortably move through.

 

[BoydCravenJr]

This sounds like something similar to one of the projects I will be working on this coming spring. At my home in the city, I am making 2 doe colonies on the north side of my house, so we can watch them from inside when looking out towards the lake. Each of these will be started with a pregnant doe. At 5 weeks, I will remove the young bucks to my grazers out in the yard for grow-out as feeders. I will choose the best couple of does to stay with mom. At 16-18 weeks, depending on weather, I will breed the new does, along with mom, at the same time, and repeat the process.

Each colony will have a 12'x 12'x 6' tall fenced-in area, with a fenced top and 12" square cement pavers for a floor, so they don't dig out and nothing else digs in. Each colony with have a colony hutch 2 stories high with ramps leading from the ground level to the first floor, and another leading from first floor to second. Each hutch is 2'x 4' for 16 square feet of shelter. We shall see if another is needed in each colony or not, based on how they get along.

Feed is 100% grown on my property, except organic wheat that I barter for with a local farmer for sprouting. I use ground sprouted wheat as the basis for making my own compound feed by adding other ingredients that I have grown, for my own FeedCube recipe. I press 2" cubes from this. They are either fed immediately "wet" or dehydrated if they are to be stored for later. Each rabbit gets one FeedCube in the a.m. and one in the p.m.

I use no meds at all on my rabbits. I use willow leaves and new growth as a big part of the feed recipe ingredients. Willow, of the salix family, is a natural coccidiostat (prevents cocci, not cure it) and of course has fiber that's off the charts. I do a lot of experimenting with feed ingredients, but it's very easy to keep the protein, fiber, energy and minerals way above the average feed bag tag organically, and best of all... for FREE.

My "other project" for this year is a bit more ambitious. It will be a 1 acre fenced rabbitat at my country property, with no-climb fences, brush piles and of course the same type of colony hutches in the shady areas. This will be strictly for feeders, and nobunny will over-winter there. Here in Michigan, when the free feed is gone in the fall, before the snow flies, everybunny goes into jars. <br /><br /> -- Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:02 pm -- <br /><br /> IF I am happy with the 1 acre rabbitat, I plan to eventually build a walipini hybrid structure within it, at the peak of the hill. That would allow entry via a door for myself, or tubes for the rabbits. My property runs east/west, so the roof on the north side will be sod covered, the south side greenhouse panels. 6' earth sheltered walls on the north and south, rising to 8' in the center via heavy wooden trusses. Driveway culvert tubes make perfect entry tubes.

 

[MaggieJ]

A reminder to new members to please add your state or province to your profile. It is very difficult to get into a detailed discussion of this sort without knowing what your climate is like. Please, don't just mention it in a thread -- you can't expect people to remember. Take the moment to add it to your profile so that information is available to other members.

 

[wamplercathy]

Here in Michigan, when the free feed is gone in the fall, before the snow flies, everybunny goes into jars.

inkbunny: :welcome:

I'm very new to rabbits. (Getting my first trio in mid-April), but I have been doing tons of research over the past 13 months. For healthy safe rabbits they need a secure home. If you want to let your buns have a run you will need to be ready to give lifesaving medications. I have been weighing this exact idea. I live out in the country so the predator list is very long. But even if you live in the city there are still several critters that would love a bunny dinner. The city also has an additional predator NEIGHBORS.

Also if everybunny goes into a jar, then how do you start in the Spring? I would guess if you have a reliable breeder to get your stock from, then it wouldn't be such an issue, but still I would rather feed my breeding stock through the winter then to have to start all over each Spring. :x

Over all it sounds like a great idea. BUT I would learn everything you can from the several books that are out there and also RT is over following with information.

 

[sinthome]

Thanks, for the replies, everyone.

Boyd, I was thinking about the same sort of plan to gradually increase the colony population with sibling pairs from the same filial line.. I think it will reduce the likelihood of fighting and fertility issues often associated with multiple does. I also agree that natural coccidiostats are the answer. I will be excited to see how your new designs shape up! Your books have been a real inspiration to me. Everyone here who hasn't heard of Boyd's project and books should really check em out before making claims about the dangers of pasture, etc.

Also I came across another e-book on "Rabbits in Colonies" that recommended the minimum of a 6" pipe for tunnels. I was initially worried about the rabbits soiling the pipe over time and it being hard to clean, but since they typically only poop while eating, I hope this won't become a problem. I am planning on getting Champagne d'Argent and New Zealand Reds for breeding stock and trying out both and possibly hybrids. I will install 10" plastic culvert pipes. Do you think that corrugated pipe would be problematic in some way?

I have current and past experience raising sheep, goats, cows, ducks, chickens.. and worms. Rabbits are new to me, but as you can tell I obsessively research a subject before jumping in. I have good pasture management skills and am not worried about that aspect of my design. The breeder pens will have a nice buried perimeter fence that goes all the way up to the shed roof, impermeable to rodents and other predators. I am thinking that the burrow tunnels will open into a small, gravel-bottomed, hay-mulched section that leads up onto a wire feeding platform (with poop catch pan below). When the grass is grown out enough, I will allow access into the small pasture run. In the winter it will remain closed off and they will be fed green fodder from my hydroponic NFT fodder system. Winter frost should kill most parasite eggs.

Regarding burrow access, the burrows are under the greenhouse walkway, covered by 4x8 sheets of plywood. Easy as flipping up a board to check on nests, etc.

What do y'all think is the longest length of pipe tunnel that the rabbits will enjoy using for daily outdoor access? Is 10ft too long? 15ft? The longer the pipe, the warmer the air will become (earth heat exchange) and the better the air will flow through it into the greenhouse (chimney effect).

 

[Zass]

but since they typically only poop while eating, I hope this won't become a problem.

This is simply not a true statement.
Rabbits poop to mark their space as well. Especially if there are other rabbits around. Some also potty in their nests. Expect to find poop everywhere the rabbits can access.

Winter frost should kill most parasite eggs.

I do not believe that winter frost kills cocci. That won't be your main concern though, since parasite exposure will occur everywhere in the colonies, including in the tunnels where it will not freeze.

covered by 4x8 sheets of plywood. Easy as flipping up a board to check on nests, etc.

I would have an awful time flipping up one of those to check nests, especially if they were snow covered. I think I can assume you would have an easier time with it though, since you proposed the idea.

 

[sinthome]

I don't see snow becoming a problem inside my greenhouse.. not sure how you missed that. Cutting a hinged lid into some plywood is no big deal. Also I imagine that conventional wire cage and also colony setups with no distinction between inside and outside the burrow might contribute to the "poop anywhere and everywhere" behavior. Pooping in the burrow can be solved with the deep litter approach and easy to shovel into worm bins located right next to the burrows in my greenhouse. I am curious to hear other opinions on this. Don't folks sometimes potty train their pet rabbits? Not sure how labor intensive that is..

 

[Dood]

In my experience rabbits are much neater in confined spaces - my 3 house bunnies are very well litter trained in their cages but when out to run loose they drop poops everywhere and usually return to their litter box for peeing but not always and baby rabbits have zero litter box habits.

I have a 10' x 10' grow out room for my 4 to 16 week olds and poop is EVERYWHERE, but they do tend to pee more frequently in the corners making them little pee glaciers in the winter and cess pools in the summer that need daily cleaning and this waste is far too strong for worms to survive in.

Fortunately my rabbits don't soil their nest boxes and I can leave them in their cages year round but many others have rabbits that treat them as litterboxes

 

[CptJack]

As someone who only keeps house rabbits/pets, the idea that they're neater with more space is dead wrong. Rabbits use poop to mark territory. When they're in a confined space they know its their territory and stick to a potty corner. Given a large area, they poop all over it to keep marking it and every time you clean they're going to lay it down again.

 

[Zass]

I don't see snow becoming a problem inside my greenhouse.. not sure how you missed that.

I mistook "under the greenhouse walkway" for outside the greenhouse instead of inside of it.


I keep litterbox using housepet rabbits, rabbits in cages, and I had a 18x24 foot grow out colony, with a shelter that the rabbits liked to burrow under.
I used it for a long time with absolutely no problems.

A year ago, Hepatic cocci (brought in by a pasture raised rabbit) wiped out everything in that pen in under two weeks, and has forced me to use the wire grow out pens for now.
In my case, thankfully, clean wire was enough to prevent infection in the rest of my litters.

I'm still in the process of trying to work out a grow out pen that is spacious enough to suit me, and can still be kept sanitary enough to avoid cocci infection. Once the protozoa has been introduced into the soil, things become a lot more complicated.

They have to be kept off the soil and off their feces. Which is why control of where they potty and exposure to feces is often treated as a larger issue with rabbits than it is with other livestock.
Likewise, depending on which parasites come along with your initial rabbits, deep litter might not work very well.

I dunno. There are a lot variables. Some types of cocci are much worse than others. What works for one person might not work, or might not even be necessary for another. Some rabbits are naturally more resistant than others.

Don't folks sometimes potty train their pet rabbits?

My house pet rabbits will use their litterboxes, until they smell another rabbit. When that occurs they will sprinkle their territorial droppings all over their space to let everyone know who owns it.
Many people suggest spaying and neutering adult animals to help prevent that behavior, but I've yet to see convincing evidence that it actually works.

Kits may or may not use the litterboxes. I've had some litters do better than others, but in general, count on kits making a mess.

 

[wamplercathy]

I don't see snow becoming a problem inside my greenhouse.. not sure how you missed that.

Don't folks sometimes potty train their pet rabbits?

My house pet rabbits will use their litterboxes, until they smell another rabbit. When that occurs they will sprinkle their territorial droppings all over their space to let everyone know who owns it.
Many people suggest spaying and neutering adult animals to help prevent that behavior, but I've yet to see convincing evidence that it actually works.

Kits may or may not use the litterboxes. I've had some litters do better than others, but in general, count on kits making a mess.

Slightly fftopic3:, All of my dogs and cats have been spayed or neutered. At no point did they ever stop marking territory. In some case they still enjoyed mating. One such case was my sheltie who was neutered at 6 months, and 10 years later he was trying his darnedest to get my mohter-in-laws Dobi pregnant. :shock: :lol: :lol: Him and our 6 year old german shepherd. :lol: :lol: I have hundreds of these examples, everyone more funny then the last, encompass just about every critter that can be fixed. But this is not the place

So in short, no spaying and neutering an animal doesn't suppress the animals true nature. Lessen it, yes. End it, never. And typical the older the animal when fixed the less it suppresses those tendencies.

But if your raising rabbits I don't see you having them fixed. Also any group of females, when left to their own devices, will fight. It won't matter if they are related or not. Actually they may fight more. Female rabbits are very territorial. Hence why you take the doe to the bucks cage. I know what I've read about rabbits and have also studied animal behavior and hold a degree in Animal Science.

sinthome the colony lifestyle seems like a nice thought, but there are just so many risk. Most of which are out of your hands. Out of any one's hands. Rabbit multiply like crazy just because of these risk. I may have missed your reason for raising rabbits, but I'll reread this thread to find that answer. I am going to start raising meat rabbits for human consumption. With that in mind I want to make sure that no one gets sick from the meat. I do wish you the best of luck though. Am very interested in how this works out for you.

 

[Marinea]

I am curious...I realize that you have experience with livestock, Sinthome, but I am wondering why you are choosing to get into rabbits with such an ambitious plan. Will this be meat rabbits for your family's consumption, or are you anticipating some commercial application?

We have seen several people start off on a large scale and very quickly get in over their heads, and then they are out of the rabbit "business". I would be very hesitant to make extensive changes to a large greenhouse and surrounding area as a start up to a new livestock situation.

 

[BoydCravenJr]

Also if everybunny goes into a jar, then how do you start in the Spring? I would guess if you have a reliable breeder to get your stock from, then it wouldn't be such an issue, but still I would rather feed my breeding stock through the winter then to have to start all over each Spring.

In that post, I mentioned that the 1 acre rabbitat is for feeders only. My breeders are never going to be there. They stay at my lake house, where I live. My son lives at the property where the rabbitat is.

 

[wamplercathy]

Also if everybunny goes into a jar, then how do you start in the Spring? I would guess if you have a reliable breeder to get your stock from, then it wouldn't be such an issue, but still I would rather feed my breeding stock through the winter then to have to start all over each Spring.

In that post, I mentioned that the 1 acre rabbitat is for feeders only. My breeders are never going to be there. They stay at my lake house, where I live. My son lives at the property where the rabbitat is.

That makes sense. I must have miss read the post. Sorry

 

[sinthome]

Well, I don't see my plan as all that ambitious, but I might be an all or nothing type and I like integrated systems design. I would like to eventually get my rabbitry figured out well enough that I can begin bringing jars of rabbit stew to the tailgate farmer's market, although I have not yet sorted out the specifics for legal on-site processing and am not open to slaughtering off-site (or getting a license, but I bet there is a loophole to discover). In the meantime I am just trying to experiment and feed my family.

==

Regarding the threat of coccidiosis and other illnesses...

Here is my opinion, apologies for getting rantish and I know I don't have any practical rabbit experience, yet, but keep in mind that even though I am a novice with rabbit-keeping, these same principles of natural/alternative healthcare have become well-established with other livestock species and have numerous advocates (and books!). I am suspicious of the claim that rabbits are any different in this regard than cows, horses, sheep, goats, pigs, ducks, chickens, etc etc.

It is my personal sentiment that modern "antiseptic" rabbit-keeping has it backwards. Creating an antiseptic environment, regardless of how far removed the rabbits are from the soil or other vectors of contagion, is counter-productive and self-perpetuating (another example of this issue is the well-documented overuse of "antibacterial" hand soap). The better option is to focus on improving the rabbit's dietary health and providing adequate sun and exercise. In my opinion, it is the germophobic antiseptic practices (which can never be antiseptic enough to remove all risk of exposure) coupled with cramped, solitary confinement and low quality feed that leads to acute infections. Instead, a natural level of exposure plus a healthy immune system is a superior approach. This isn't an apology for lazy rabbit-keeping, rather it involves a HIGHER degree of management, but prioritizing completely different things than the conventional method.

I see a successful alternative management strategy adopting the following practices:

1) Preventative diet: I am convinced that commercial pelletized feed is unhealthy and often toxic. Even "organic" and even supposedly "GMO-free" pellets are too processed and stale, with little to no phytonutrients or enzymes still intact. Feeding nutrient dense and living food, full of phytonutrients and enzymes and only raw, unprocessed sources of fiber, both contribute directly to the rabbit's health and, even more importantly, these benefits are passed on to their offspring-- both in utero and in the mother's milk and cecotropes. Add to this, herbal supplementation with natural coccidiostats and wormers, immune system boosters and I wonder if the common pregnancy complications, kit fatalities and coccidiosis infections wouldn't disappear entirely.

2) Complementing the all-important dietary considerations, I think there are more improvements to be made. Namely, a more natural living environment with better passive ventilation, temperature regulation and free access to socialize with other rabbits will promote better aerobic health, sunlight exposure, and the fatigued immune response that occurs from the stresses of solitary confinement and uncontrollable temperature fluctuations. Some might say their rabbits are less stressed when alone, but I doubt this could be true for a social animal, except for maybe the case of intact bucks, who are probably better kept separately.

3) The major consideration that I find lacking in the examples I have read of colony-style rabbit-keeping-- and what I suspect to be a major reason for so many failures with this setup-- is a strict policy of maintaining a "closed" arrangement that limits each colony population to filial genetic lines, i.e. start with one doe or a pair of healthy siblings from the same litter and only increase the colony population by selecting from their young and do not introduce any foreign rabbits to this system at any time. Once the adult rabbits have built up their own probiotics and immunity to disease, they will only rear young that share these traits (passed on genetically and also through milk and cecotropes). Introducing outside rabbits that don't have the same resistances are liable to get sick from the exposure and introduce an additional parasite load to the existing colony, which can have a cascade effect, leading to the "requirement" for antiseptic hygienic practices. But, as long as the closed system isn't disrupted, exposure to feces (such as does marking their territory or kits making a mess) is a lot less dangerous.

It needs to be emphasized that achieving number 2 or 3 without first establishing a baseline of dietary health (number 1) will probably be disastrous, since colony life is inherently less antiseptic than solitary confinement. On that point I don't disagree with the received wisdom. It is less antiseptic keeping rabbits together on the ground than in wire cages, but it CAN be more "hygienic" (health-promoting)! In my research on rabbits in colonies and on coccidiosis, I haven't found a single failure that hasn't resulted from either 1) not first establishing the baseline diet outlined above or, 2) after getting the dietary considerations in line, neglecting the other issues addressed above. Although it remains largely theoretical, I imagine that implementing all three of these management practices would create a highly resistant rabbit population with little to no illness-related losses.

==

Regarding my experimental rabbitry design:

I am reconsidering the setup, as originally described, as I was not anticipating such a large diameter for the burrow pipe tunnels and I am now recognizing that the holes into the masonry wall of the greenhouse would be excessive. Instead I am evaluating a compromise. The two main advantages of the greenhouse are a stable burrow temperature and the CO2 input for the greenhouse plants. I think that my climate is moderate enough that an outdoor burrow, sheltered from the elements and fitted with an insulated lid (and possibly wired for a small heat lamp for the week or so of 0deg F winter weather we get) would perform almost as well as the burrow in the greenhouse. If I build it against the west wall of the greenhouse and vent the burrow directly through this wall (with a much more reasonable 2" diameter pipe), the rabbits can still supply the greenhouse with CO2.

This design will also allow the tunnel pipes to slope up into the burrows instead of down, which was the original design. I am also thinking that corrugated drain pipe, although cheaper than pvc, will be all but impossible to clean in the corrugated valleys. Using a smooth wall pipe for the burrow tunnels would be fairly simple to wipe out (with a large pipe cleaner brush). But 10" pvc is pretty pretty pricey. Maybe a trench with plywood shoring and an insulated, removable top at ground level? More work and potential issues, but improves access and a lot cheaper.. Any thoughts on these construction details would be appreciated.

 

[alforddm]

What about those black corrugated plastic drain pipes? Not sure if that would be cheaper or not.